Coytee Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Upon the application of a positive signal most drivers move forward. Regardless of the positive lead being connected to speaker positive or speaker negative? (I wouldn't have expected that!) maybe one day I'll finally get it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 "Coytee, as long as the wires are consistent it makes no difference. They are in phase. " Absolute polarity is audible. In part it depends on the speakers, and in part it depends on the recording. Any musician that plays an electric guitar can demonstarate this to you. When the speaker has reverse polarity the sound does not have the 'punch' or 'jump' that it does when it's in polarity. A good demonstration is the CD from DMP 'NYC Cats Direct' by John Tropea, incedible 'jump' on guitar chords. 'The Sheffield Drum Record', listen to Jim Keltner and then switch the absolute polarity. Very strange sound when in reverse polarity. Flim and the BB's 'Tricycle' has a cut that has so much impact that it has made people jump to their feet. Just because it's loud doesn't mean it will have 'jump', 'impact', or 'punch'. Many multi-mic'd recordings don't pay enough attention to the phase of all the mics, and many speakers just aren't coherent enough to do it. Can you hear it? I used to wager people that they could hear it, and I even offered to allow them to stick their fingers in their ears while listening (of course I selected the music and speakers). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 I remember my first lesson in phase quite fondly. A dance club had a long row of 15" cabinets, and the sound guy before me had reversed the polarity of every other speaker somehow on the way back to the rack. System had virtually no bass despite a frightening number of sub bins. Let's just say that the girls were very happy with me for making their sound 'bump' again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invidiosulus Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 But if your polarity was backward then you would only ever see green lights in your rear view mirror. -Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Coytee, look at it this way. If you flip the blades on your power cord, does your fan reverse direction? That is NOT a precise analogy as there are other factors between simple 60hz AC and the AC of a speaker feed, but basically it is sound. As long as both speakers are seeing the same phased signal all is well. Now, if some engineers want to dispute that in formula and detail, fine. But that has been what I have understood from day one and have never heard anything from speakers to suggest it is not correct. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invidiosulus Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 This is what I was thinking of, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 When it get's to your ears, it's phase... Not true at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 Jeez, Mike, truly astounding. Yer in my head... Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 lol, that was weird....like the whole second half of my post went missing....[^o)] I gotta run, but I'll just sum it up real fast....phase and polarity have different units. That alone should be enough to know there is something different about them. For what it's worth, I recently learned that PWK also believed in absolute polarity (although some might find in the Dope From Hope where he argued against it, he later changed his mind). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 Okies... Anyway, I DO keep mine straight. However, there have been many occasions over the years when I simply switched one due to a setup error and never heard a bit of difference as long as polarities matched...and that is all that counts to me. Frankly, if PWK had such a struggle with it as to have argued one side then the other, I don't think it worth a lot of thought or worry. I have to deal with enough clearly audible issues to worry about such things. Just keep'em PC if you can, and enjoy the music if you can't... Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 You got me on that one, Mark. I thought those switches (and I could swear the manuals said as much) only switched ONE side in order to correct phase if you reversed one. I do recall they made a clearly audible difference...but I never heard one from wireing both speakers the same regardless of terminal color. Dang. Now I am wondering why my fan doesn't turn backwards when I reverse the power cord. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 Dang. Now I am wondering why my fan doesn't turn backwards when I reverse the power cord. Probably has something to do with the plane & conveyor belt.... [:#] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 Well, I don't know about any particular gear in terms of switches. The switches to which I refer were just DIY jobs inline with the speaker wire. The EV-Dx38 has a polarity switch "normal/inverted". It's for each (of 4) output channels so I'd presumably have to hit either all 4 or at least, hit the two that are paired together (woofer/woofer or 402/402) I presume the woofer section would make more difference, if there was a difference to be heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 When it get's to your ears, it's phase... If it is less than 180 deg. out of phase, when it gets to the ear it is a difference in amplitude. http://www.community.chester.pa.us/files/technote/polphase.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 http://www.community.chester.pa.us/files/technote/polphase.pdf Not to be nit picky, but that PDF mentions that you must have two signals in order for phase to exist... I think there are some great ideas presented in that article, but phase is an integral part to every single signal. In other words, a signal has a phase regardless of the presence of other signals. Or put another way, the phase is what makes a wave a wave instead of a constant pressure... For those that like the math, the phase is simply the imaginary portion of the acoustic wave equation... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 + = Positive - = Negative -- = double Negative <> = by curious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuzzzer Posted July 24, 2008 Author Share Posted July 24, 2008 Well I had a little time this morning and opened up my speakers. Looks like for each driver there's a black wire that's the negative wire and a green, yellow or red wire depending on which driver it is for the positive wire. Everything was hooked up like it was supposed to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 maybe it's the new receivers problem, not the speakers ................... did they sound good before you switched power units ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Not to be nit picky, but that PDF mentions that you must have two signals in order for phase to exist... If you are not comparing a signal to another signal, or to a starting (reference) point, the concept of phase is meaningless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 The concept of voltage is meaningless too without a reference point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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