How Vinyl Got It's Groove Back

[Don Richard]

The commercial folks don't seem to be able to use the medium to it's best for some reason.

This is true. This was also true of vinyl.

Warner, for one, has remasters on CD that my local audio salon sells for only $13 each. Give a listen to the remaster of Dire Straits On Every Street for an example of a CD done right.

The big reason that the commercial efforts fall short is that the producers demand that the product be mixed to sound good on the radio, on autosound systems and on portable stereos.

For audiophile results, get an audiophile version of the CD.

For older works not available on digital, DIY. Any digital medium should easily contain the information contained on vinyl.

[oldbuckster]

Isn't that part of why we're all here? Most of us are on this forum because we're audio-geeks who care about sound quality. There certainly are better music forums than this if that's all you wish to discuss.

Your point ? I will not go away, and I'm entitled to my point of view too. I'm here because I'm a Klipsch customer that thinks the MUSIC is the Magic, not the equipment or media it is re-produced on ................... Last time I knew this is an open forum !!!!!!

[oldenough]

" I'm here because I'm a Klipsch customer that thinks the MUSIC is the Magic, not the equipment or media it is re-produced on "

Forgive me OB but from previous posts of yours I would have to say that is not strictly true. If I remember correctly you do not see any "magic" in the record (vinyl) media and the music it reproduces and usually have a pretty negative opinion of it. Just an observation.

[oldbuckster]

Forgive me OB but from previous posts of yours I would have to say that is not strictly true. If I remember correctly you do not see any "magic" in the record (vinyl) media and the music it reproduces and usually have a pretty negative opinion of it. Just an observation.

That's correct ................. After almost 30 years of collecting and playing Vinyl, this old dawg has had enough of Vinyl ...... Musicans make music otherwise vinyl would be blank .............. You don't need vinyl, CD's, or tapes to know the Music is the Magic ............... Go to a Concert, any kind of music you wish to hear .............

[fenderbender]

I have records dating back to near 1900 not available any other way.  I have delta blues, jazz, and other materials of all kinds I consider priceless.  My original recording of "Rhapsody in Blue" with George at the piano and the Paul Whiteman band is by far the finest performance of that abused work ever. 

Those restricted to digital deny themselves the vast majority of great recorded music.  To my knowledge, there have been no Kid Orys, Bix Biederbeckes, Louis Armstrongs, Enrico Carusos, Harry James, Toscaninis,etc, etc. since 1981.  I'd starve to death if I did not have all this to feast on.

Dave

[Y][Y][Y][Y][Y][Y]

I was just treated to a listening of an original 1935 recording of Porgy and Bess!!!! You can't get that in your neighborhood Specs! And you know what sounded pretty darn good because it was handled with kid gloves....... I don't care who is performing it now, this was the original cast with Ira Gershwin directing!

Yesterday I just pick up a dozen LPs from a craigslist hit....payed $2 per........1/2 are crap but I'm a big freddie hubbard fan and found 2 lp's that I didn't know existed and I didn't think they were ever played.....sound unbelievable. Also got a First pressing Jimmy smith "Organ Grinder Swing" and First pressing Wes Montgomery Trio "round Midnight"....A couple of pops but for $2 !!! These are easily worth $50-60 each........

How many times can I listen to Led Zep II or Pink Floyd Dark Side.???you get my point.............I also would go nuts if I didn't have all this musical banquet .....

Why settle for pancakes at IHOP when you have been invited to brunch at the Waldorf!!!

[Mallette]

>For audiophile results, get an audiophile version of the CD

Redbook is not strictly an audiophile medium. Given that 1 bit, 2.8mhz, 24/88.2, 24/96.1, and 24/192 all sound demonstrably superior to many of our ears, one would not necessarily include the bottom of the uncompressed digital heap in the class 'audiophile'. I know I've never heard an LP digitized to Redbook that sounded as much like the original as at higher resolutions. I am pretty sold on 1 bit, 2.8mhz in my month or so of experimentation, especially since it seems to transcode to all the others quite transparently...except for lost data, of course.

Not trying to start a debate, just rendering what appears to be a logical argument.

Dave

[Mallette]

Forgive me OB but from previous posts of yours I would have to say that is not strictly true. If I remember correctly you do not see any "magic" in the record (vinyl) media and the music it reproduces and usually have a pretty negative opinion of it. Just an observation.

That's correct ................. After almost 30 years of collecting and playing Vinyl, this old dawg has had enough of Vinyl ...... Musicans make music otherwise vinyl would be blank .............. You don't need vinyl, CD's, or tapes to know the Music is the Magic ............... Go to a Concert, any kind of music you wish to hear .............

Dang, Buckmeister. REALLY crotchety today. So far, this has NOT been a "CD's suck, LP's rule" fest. Certainly not from me. I love music, period. That means I love it ALL. Sheet music, reel to reel music, cassette music, cylnder music, live music, dead music, musicbox music, music of the spheres, shellac, vinyl, cylinders...BRING IT ON!!! I want it ALL, and I want it in the most accurate form technology can provide. I am NOT ready to settle for vinyl, or Redbook, or SACD, or ANYTHING until it is PERFECT and I really cannot tell if it is live or if it is Memorex.

THAT is what this hobby is about to me. The pusuit of perfection...not the delusion that I have found it.

For what it is worth, I totally agree with you...Music IS the magic, and to the extent that anything that can be avoided alters the experience of having been there for the live performance while listening to the recording, we are not there yet. Stereo is basically dual mono. Redbook throws away vast quantities of orginal information. Vinyl has ticks and pops.

Years ago I said I am not a hobbyist and that if I could get perfect sound out a of little black cube with one button, that is what I would want.

I stand by that. Until it hits the market, I have a hobby besides music.

Dave

[garymd]

Holy cow OB! Nobody said they wanted you to leave! It just seems you now don't want anybody to post their opinions on sound quality? This is an AUDIO forum. We come here to discuss these topics because they play an important role in our musical enjoyment. We can't go to live concerts every night (at least I can't) so we do the next best thing which is try to reproduce that live sound the best we can in our own homes. That is a major reason I love Klipsch Heritage speakers. IMO they come about as close as you can get to live sound. I get more enjoyment out of playing vinyl than I do CDs and if my experiences can help others achieve their 2-channel home audio goals I will post about my experiences (or read of others). Stay or leave but you cannot discourage us from posting about sound quality on an AUDIO forum.

I hope you have a peaceful and enjoyable evening.

- Gary

[jbsl]

For audiophile results, get an audiophile version of the CD.

Not all cds have audiophile versions. Unless there is some webstie I don't know about.

Eventually I'll get a affordable TT and experiment with vinyl but that will have to wait till next year.

[oldbuckster]

Let's try this, Back when alot of Classical music was written, was there Records, Cd's or Tapes ? I believe the answer is NO, but aren't those works still enjoyed today ? So what produced the Magic of that music ? ......... Dave, I stated on the last page your view was correct, warts and all .......... and garymd, seems if I don't agree with others opinions on this forum, people don't like it ............ There are two sides to every coin, all of us are different, and have different tastes and views .......... My comments were more about the state of the Recording Industry,which is in sad shape, than a CD vs. LP battle. I really don't care what a person listens to, I really don't. Your Stereo, Your Money, Your Choice .............. What a great country we live in ........... EH !!!!!!!

[Mallette]

I, for one, love you OB. Warts and all.

Dave

[whatever55]

OK

Pistols at 10 paces....

Then we tar. feather, then draw and quarter the loser.... on a good day.

[BLSamuel]

OB, I love you like a brother too man.

Now, what I think OB is saying, don't forget to listen to the music, not that there's anything wrong with always trying to get better more lifelike reprorduction, but don't forget to enjoy the music along the way. I think he's also to the point where he doesn't like messing with vinyl as it takes more time and effort to play an LP than a CD.

And I think I recall OB posting that his Cornwalls were almost finished implying another upgrade may be coming or was it that he was happy where they're at.

As for me, I've picked up a few LPs lately as they contained music I'd like to have or try and were dirt cheap. A few free at the Pilgrimage and some over spring break back in April 50 cents a disc to $4 for the most expensive. Music I'd not otherwise be able to get for some time on CD, if it's even available on CD, though I've found some CDs for $2 or $3 or less also. And one of the 50 cents a disc was a 2 record set that's been butchered to fit on one CD and my vinyl copy is quite worn though this one appears to be in minty condition for $1 - haven't gotten around to playing it yet - looks can be deceiving in that a clean looking LP can still have way too many ticks and pops though if it looks all scratched up it almost always sounds all scratched up. If it looks that bad, probably ain't gonna get played on my best turntable and cartridge anyway - maybe my back up once I get it set up.

Sound quality wise, I don't miss the ticks and pops on LPs though most of mine are pretty quiet at least as quiet as they're going to be with the standard Discwasher cleaning. Even pulled out a 50 cent one that was very quiet, or may have even been a free one from the Pilgrimage. That said, I finally have a couple of things on CD and vinyl so maybe I should compare. One on brand new heavyweight vinyl is Steely Dan's Aja people were raving about. Trying to decide if I should get a better record cleaner or just go with my trustworthy Discwasher - been thinking of trying to build a record cleaning machine on the cheap but not gone beyond thinking. The other that comes to mind is a minty looking copy of Time Out by The Dave Brubeck Quartet. But saving comparing in any case to when I have a few hours to just sit down and listen to music.

Now I just need to move my turntable to our office room so I can listen to LPs out here as the family normally would rather watch the TV. I also want to digitize my LPs and have a CD and mp3 (music to work by) copies so can listen to without the effort to listen to the LP. Unfortunately I have no budget for this project though I do have a TEAC CD recorder though reading Dave's posts I'd want better than CD transcribing and then burn to CD. I may need to consider the sound card when our 4 year old laptop dies. At one time was going to dump the LPs to CD... then got an mp3 player so record to CD then mp3... a project that's not yet begun. Just too many other things going on. I'm sure no chance of a setup like Dave's where I could record better than CD digitally. Got those CDs Dave sent to the Pilgrimage I need to sit down and listen to. I figure they deserve more than background music while at work over my work laptop or a portable CD player.

Truth be told, I can enjoy music over a crappy boombox. But naturally, the better the reproduction system, and that should include the source, the more enjoyable the music.

[thebes]

Don and JJ, I can't necessarily argue with where you're coming from. The first time I got a cd player in my house I immediately tossed all my lps into a closet and left them behind when I moved. No more noise. clarity etc. It was'nt, however, until I got back into music, got a decent system together and started playing around with BOTH formats that I started getting an appreciation for some of the magic that resides in vinyl.

It's certainly not the rice krispies, (stuck spots happen on both mediums so that don't count) and I have cd's that sound so much better (and worse, of course) than their larger cousins. Indeed if I owned a shotgun,and had something called a *****, some of my lps would have been flying through the air to be brought down in a blaze of buckshot.

Let's face it lps will always be a niche product, and certainly most of the high end stuff still being sold are linestages and solid state whatevers.

I will have to take strong exception, however, to you using single A/B's to decide which formate to choose. IMO that's much to narrow a sampling to base a decision upon, especially when it means you will be cutting yourself off from so much music that is only available on cd's.

Again IMO, but of course I am the Thebes, so I'd like to think that I have a certain sort of infallibility. If you have the ducats to support both formats you'd be a fool not to.

Like life, there is no perfection in music, nor it's reproduction. I would never cancel a picnic lunch on a warm summer day because ants might show up. Don't do the same to your listening.

Now I still sure don't know what a ***** is, but I have been snipe hunting. Bagged me a sackful. Anybody want to go snipe hunting with me?

[garymd]

This never was an LP versus CD discussion. This was an LP discussion. Oh, I forgot. I can't talk about sources, only the magic of music. La-ti-frickin-da. I think I'm going to cry.

[BLSamuel]

I'm really glad I didn't abandon my LPs. Too much music that I've enjoyed that I may never get on CD. Saved a crate of 'em once from mold and mildew when a whole crate full sitting in the corner started soaking up some water from the carpet as the roof in the house we were renting developed a leak. Took 'em all out of the sleeves and carefully cleaned 'em up as best I could and let everything dry out. Yep. Most of 'em are still stored in crates. I supposed I should get around to building some respectable shelves or at least another crate or two....

Nor am I going to throw out my CDs though I doubt that I'll ever decide vinyl sound enough better to toss out the convenience of the CD.

Now I might throw out my crate full of cassettes, mostly recorded from my LPs, should I find out they all suffer terribly from print through... but first I have a cassette deck that needs some new belts... or find my cleaner and demagnetizer and clean up the cassette player in our truck or miniman to try 'em out. I think I did the truck and a lot of wow so hoping it was the deck or just a single tape.

No 8 tracks though. Somehow, growing up in the 70's (born in 1961) I managed to avoid 8 track. Not sure how. Thought a reel to reel would be cool but never did get around to getting one.

Thebes ... I've got a shotgun if you ever want to shoot up some lousy LPs or CDs or skeets whatever they be. Your are definitely The Thebes - most people can't catch Snipe. A whole bag full? That's impressive. Hope your plugging away on your 2012 campaign.

[BLSamuel]

Stupid question? How does an LP play without a groove? I mena if vinyl lost it's groove it wouldn't work too well now would it? Though I did hear some wisacre once released a 45 of silence so that those who didn't like music could play silence on the juke box. I still think it had a groove.

What I find interesting, is that abnormal folks, those unlike us in here, are suprised when you put on an LP that hasn't been abused. Most people don't realize LPs can actually sound very good... maybe as good or even better ... with an occasional tick or pop though I read onece that a really good cleaner will clean most of the ticks and pops and a lot of grunge. Of course could've been one of those crazy types who think a green magic marker applied along the edge of a CD dramatically improves the sound.

[fenderbender]

Thebes "Anybody want to go snipe hunting with me? "

I'd rather go cow tipping!....there are no pops or hisses...many more older rare cows to choose from...cows are not compressed...they sound very good on Cornwalls [6]

[BLSamuel]

I'd rather go cow tipping!....there are no pops or hisses...many more older rare cows to choose from...cows are not compressed...they sound very good on Cornwalls

Well maybe no pops or hisses but could get some serious flatulance released! And be careful that ya don't accidentally tip a bull with a bad attitude... especially if he's got some nice big horns...

I've heard stories from well before my time of outhouse tipping. The best being the old boy who got tired of his outhouse being tipped over all the time, maybe aorund halloween or some other regular basis, so one time when he needed to dig a new pit anyway he just moved his outhouse to the side of the old pit and shall we say, just covered it loosely. Well, you can imagine where the outhouse tippers ended up.... didn't bother that old boy's outhouse anymore and he had a good laugh.

[garymd]

Back to the subject at hand..........................

According to the tracking info, my Led Zeppelin Mothership Box Set should arrive at my office this morning. SWEEEEEEET!!!!

In addition, Acoustic Sounds is shipping three Blue Note 45s this month instead of the usual two. Three that I have VERY MUCH been looking forward to:

Art Blakey's Moanin'

Fred Jackson's Hootin' and Tootin'

and last but not least, Kenny Burrell's Midnight Blue

Lots of new LPs to help break in the Zu!! Life is good!!