How to get closer to tube sound from SS Amps? Or do I need to?

[SWL]

If solid state or tubes were really doing their job properly, they would sound the same. Since they don't, it's really just a matter of choosing your flavor of distortion.

That said, the speaker will have far more impact on the sound than the electronics. It would not be unwise to ensure that you're getting the best out of your Khorns first.

For starters, are your khorns tucked into the corners all proper like with a good seal?

........and you can consider your room to actually be part of your speakers. Proper placement of speakers/subs and an acoustically sound room counts for A LOT. []

[db101]

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with running a SS preamp into a tube amp, in fact the lower output impedence of a SS pre would match up better with a tube amp then the other way around, before I recently took possesion of a Ref. 4 TVC I ran an Adcom GFP-750 preamp into two different tube amps with very good results.

The best guitar tone I ever had was back in the 70's when I ran a Goldtop Les Paul Deluxe into a Marshall Super Lead Plexi, but man was it loud. I'm not convinced a guitar amp would make a good HI-FI amp but would sure like to hear it for myself.

[fenderbender]

If solid state or tubes were really doing their job properly, they would sound the same. Since they don't, it's really just a matter of choosing your flavor of distortion.

That said, the speaker will have far more impact on the sound than the electronics. It would not be unwise to ensure that you're getting the best out of your Khorns first.

For starters, are your khorns tucked into the corners all proper like with a good seal?

........and you can consider your room to actually be part of your speakers. Proper placement of speakers/subs and an acoustically sound room counts for A LOT.

In line with what Dr Who was saying....those Xovers are 24 years old ....a recap or more modern networks can really smooth out your sound , maybe even more than a different amp can if not up to spec.

I have two different sets of networks for mine the stock ak-3 that have new auicaps and ALK ES networks and both are MUCH smoother than the originals......just food for thought

[DrWho]

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with running a SS preamp into a tube amp, in fact the lower output impedence of a SS pre would match up better with a tube amp then the other way around...

Following that logic, why wouldn't the lower output impedance of SS also match up better to the speaker load? [A]

[db101]

Good point, Doc. If I was driving something like Apogees which can dip as low as 1 ohm a good SS amp is a neccesity, I don't know of any tube amp that could handle that type of load. An 8 ohm fairly stable load really shouldn't present any problems for a tube amp. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[DrWho]

An 8 ohm fairly stable load really shouldn't present any problems for a tube amp.

I agree....but I'm not sure if I would consider speakers to be stable 8 ohm loads. []

For
starters, the impedance changes with frequency. Also, the impedance
changes with cone movement (think of the difference between an air core
and an iron core inductor...same thing is happening to the voice coil
when it moves). It also changes with temperature, both short term
heating from transients as well as long term heating after extended
listening (this happens in both the voice coil and passive xover
components). And on top of all that is the back emf and its effects on
damping cone movement (the significance of this is different depending
on how much mechanical damping is present in the suspension and
acoustic load).

Also, matched impedance maximizes power
transfer, BUT with the amplifier/speaker interface we are actually more
interested in voltage transfer. I think the rule of thumb is at least
10 to 1 for adequate voltage transfer?...not 1 to 1 like you're getting
with the taps on tubes. With that in mind, I'm not surprised that I've
always noticed marked improvement by running the lowest impedance tap
on tube amps....the only downside is you lose maximum power output from
the amp.

Also, you ruin the effective output impedance of the
amp when you put a passive crossover between the amp and speaker. The
only way to fully realize the benefits of lower output impedance is to
move to active crossovers...though we don't see that too often because
that requires doubling or tripling up on amplifiers, which can get
rather pricey (especially when investing in an active xover that
doesn't totally ruin the signal quality).

That said, I've never
sat down to analyze whether or not the non-linear effects of a
loudspeaker benefit from higher output impedance...but for anyone that
thinks it does, you can just put a resistor or potentiometer (of proper
power handling) in series with the output of your amplifier and tweak to taste...

[JohnA]

As a good friend and audio boutique owner once said, "I'm not sure there is truth in tubes."

In my experience, the biggest difference between GOOD tubes and SS amps, WHEN OPERATING WELL INSIDE THEIR ENVELOPES, is the damping factor and the difference in sound that difference in cone motion control makes. When you push each design to it's output limits, the SS amp often sounds pretty nasty.

Yamaha CA-x00 integrated amps sounded quite tubey and also had a Clas A/AB switch on the front. It made a small. but audible clean-up of the sound. Pretty cool Perhaps the CA-x10 series did, also. I had a CA-800 I wish I'd kept and it did sound smooth and tubey.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Yamaha-CA-810-Integrated-Amplifier_W0QQitemZ200257457752QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item200257457752

http://cgi.ebay.com/Yamaha-CA-2010-integrated-amp-amplifier-No-Reserve_W0QQitemZ200256205572QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item200256205572

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Yamaha-CA-800-Power-Amplifier_W0QQitemZ120308233076QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item120308233076

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Listen, I really appreciate ALL the input. My head is swimming but I will get a grip on 'it' at some point.

Just saw a Jolida JD-1000RC new 100wpc integrated amp for $2395. Is Jolida a good, very good, excellent, quality and sound. I realize that it is only your opinion but it gives me some information which is much better than a vaccum. Also is class AB good? That is I guess it is not as good as pure Class A but how is AB not as good as A. Would you be happy with a class AB?

I borrowed one of those from a friend who has all tubes. It was "warm" but I also thought that it was sloppy on the bass. The Classe gear that I suggested is a world better than the Jolida. I also agree with John's post above. My friend who lent me the Jolida has a high end all tube system (VTL preamp and VTL 300 wpc monoblocks) and he loves my Musical Fidelity and Classe equipment. In his words, it has that magic he is looking for.

FWIW I was in a local shop recently that had a pair of Dunaudio Saphires driven by Cary tube equipemnt and an Esoteric CD player. This is high end tube equipment, and I give up nothing with high quality SS.

You will get a lot of opinions here. If you really want tubes, for $3000 you can do very well. Juicy Music and NOS VAlves are the hits around here, and rightly so. If you want SS, surf AudiogoN. Check out McIntosh and Classe, they are both warm and should mate well with horns. I also love Musical Fidelity (SS equipment). It was recommended by a well know tube dealer (Kevin Deal at Upscale Audio) as having warm tube sound and performing well beyond its price point. I bought it an agree 100%.

[Lawrence H Wesson]

DrWho, sorry I've been away for a while....Seal? Is that the two rubber like strips that go on either side of the smaller vertical 'board' down the back, inside? (Whew!, I'm not shure I can describe what I am talking about.) I am not shure how to tell if it is properly seated..the KHorns (the tops) fit into the corner. However there is a wainscoating around the room about 30 inches high with a molding strip at the top. Maybe that causes a problem? What would be the problem cause by it? ....just not as good of bass?

[DrWho]

Yeah, if the rubber strips don't make an airtight seal with the wall, then you're going to lose a lot of midbass (~300Hz ish). Also, if your walls are drywall with 16" studs, then you could be losing a lot of lower bass from sound transmission through the wall, not to mention some coloration from the wall vibrating. Stiffening up your corners (like 8" stud spacing or plywood reinforcement) can boost the bottom end.

It is not uncommon for a system lacking a bit in the midbass/bass department to sound a bit on the bright/harsh end. Of course getting the bass perfect doesn't guarantee that all brightness/harshness goes away either, but it's a good place to start.

[Lawrence H Wesson]

Can you and where can you buy these "networks"? Is the "ALK ES network" better than the "stock ak-3"? Which is less expensive? About how much?

(I am so relieved that someone has already invented the question mark, otherwise it would have taken me longer to write these questions - having to invent it myself!)

[wsu99999]

Do you know how to solder? If so, you may as well just update the crossovers yourself. Just get new caps and solder them exactly as the old ones were. Even if you don't know how to solder, you can teach yourself in about a hour (for this job) it's really easy. I had never soldered anything in my life, went out and picked up a soldering gun and a bunch of soldering equipment (can all be had for about 20-30 bucks) and started playing with an old circuit board. Within an hour I could easily do the job. I'm sure you could too.

[fenderbender]

Can you and where can you buy these "networks"?  Is the "ALK ES network"  better than the "stock ak-3"?  Which is less expensive? About how much? 

(I am so relieved that someone has already invented the question mark, otherwise it would have taken me longer to write these questions - having to invent  it myself!)

Crossover networks are again subjective....and are subject to the synergy of your entire system...

The ALK ES networks are very expensive...about $1500....no typo....now the question to ask is do they sound $1500 better? Thats the subjective part....

Mine came as a package deal with my Khorns...I like them very much...i could sell them but I wouldn't

A great place to start is to remove your stock Xovers and Have Bob Crites recap them......it will make a world of difference, very economically .

Then settle in with an amp you like and then...if you can Identify a specific area that you are unhappy with or you think could be improved...then grill the 3 or 4 good folks here about there upgraded Xovers and see if they have what will meet your specific needs....

Source material can be a huge pitfall with khorns also...try to identify which CD's albums sound really great and use them as a standard to check out new equipment...a ton of CD's are over compressed distorted pieces of crap that will sound awful on khorns!!!!

[Groomlakearea51]

Source material can be a huge pitfall with khorns also...try to identify which CD's albums sound really great and use them as a standard to check out new equipment...a ton of CD's are over compressed distorted pieces of crap that will sound awful on khorns!!!!

I believe that story goes like this.... "Now this CD has a great track but you'll need a couple more Sam Adams before you listen to it...."[], maybe, then[H].... [<)][]

[Travis In Austin]

Not shure what to do. I want to spend as little as possible, of course, and get an amp/preamp or integrated amp that will sound more like a tube amp for my KHorns.

Can't really add to anything that has already been said, but man that is a pretty dog you have there.

Travis