Really, really stupid Q regarding speaker volume, power and ohms...

[oldmako]

New to me CF3s. My old amp would not allow me to listen to the speakers loud enough. Not even at WOT. (that's full for you non motor heads). It was a mid level, probably 50 watt per channel old Pioneer amp. El Cheapo.

I just hooked up a 110 watt Sony DE935 5.1 (I think) Same drill. I can easily crank it to near max and while loud, it's not LOUD. I used to wail on a pair of Bose and you coundn't even get near Full volume with them. Granted that was with a 160 watt beast I was abusing my ears with. But they were loud. In fact, they ONLY sounded good loud. Low power and low volume made for low enjoyment.

I realize that loud is very subjective....and difficult to quantify over the web. But, these are big damn speakers and I want to listen to them loud once in while. My room is maybe 14x20...it's not a gym.

There is a selector on the back of the receiver for 4 or 8 OHM. I assumed that these were 8 ohm speaks....correct??

I should also add that I do not have the manual for the receiver, so I may have things messed up. I will search the web for one as soon as I am done typing this.

While not a super hi-end audiophile type geek, I have always had fairly decent, above average stuff, and have never run into this issue before. WTFO?? Hell I can crank my Klipsch PC speakers up louder.

Disappointed, dazed and confused.....pretty stupid too.

Flame if you must.

[Mallette]

Being a Heritage type, I am not familiar with CF-3's. WIth Heritage, 100w will destroy your hearing pretty quick...though cleanly. Possibilities:

> ...used to wail on a pair of Bose and you coundn't even get near Full volume with them. Granted that was with a 160 watt beast I was abusing my ears with.

1. Perhaps these Bose and those levels destroyed your hearing.

2. Perhaps it IS loud, but so clean and not painful as with Bose so you don't think so. Measure it with a meter.

3. Correct OHM setting WILL affect volume. I don't know what CF-3's want to see.

Hopefully, someone with experience with those will be able to shed more light on their efficiency, impedance, etc.

Welcome to the madness....

Dave

[russ69]

Something is wrong................. First, anybody that cranks the volume past 12 o'clock (in most cases), needs more amp and/or more loudspeakers. If you want real punch, you'll need separates and a couple hundred watts per side. Somebody can do the math but a CF-3 with 100 watts is like a Blose 901 with 1000 watts. I'm thinking you might need some HSU mid-bass woofers to kick it up a notch.............maybe.

Thanx, Russ

[Marvel]

The CF-3, 250 watts maximum continuous.

100db, 1 watt @ 1 meter.

http://www.klipsch.com/products/discontinued/details/cf-3.aspx

[seti]

Something is wrong or this is just flame bait

Have you tried another amp? Is everything operational?

CF3 eat any bose for snacks

Mallette is likely correct.

[DrWho]

I would expect CF3's to thump something awesome...so something has gotta be crazy outta whack.

I've
not had good experiences with Sony in the past, but there is certainly
going to be differences at different price points. Setting your
receiver to 4ohms is going to lower the peak power output of the
amplifier - however, I wouldn't be surprised if the CF3's dipped down
to close to 4ohms in the bass. In which case, you're probably drawing
too much current from the amp.

Does the receiver go into any kind
of protect mode when you're cranking it? Is your WOT literally cranking
the volume up as high as it will go? Or just setting it to 0dB?

Also,
there were various versions of the CF3 over the years. Roy Delgado (the
engineer that designed them) has mentioned that the earlier versions
had a much lower sensitivity...to the point that Klipsch decided to
revise the design to get the sensitivity higher (sacrificing low-end
extension for efficiency). Do you know if you have a version I, II, or
III?

And finally, the difference between 50W and 110W (assuming
they can actually provide that power) is only 3dB...which would be like
3 numbers on your receiver - so not very much difference.

Ok, one
more thing...what is your signal source? Are you taking the analog
output of a cd player into the receiver? It's possible to have the amp
cranked up all the way without it getting to its max power when the
source doesn't provide enough oomph. Going to a digital connection
between CD player and receiver would verify if this is the problem or
not.

What kind of music are you trying to jam out to?

[WMcD]

I agree with the comments above overall. Something is wrong. Even 1 or 10 watts should be impressive..

I note these are new to you. There is some chance that something is wrong with the speakers. Granted it seems a bit odd that both would have the same problem. However, I've seen it happen. A young relative of mine said her units had not been abused, but both had cooked woofers.

If the amp is going into protection mode, it might help to turn the switch to 4 ohms.

I don't see any description on the spec sheet regarding whether these speakers are bi wirable. If so there would be four terminals on the back with shorting bars between two pairs. Something to look at.

Wm McD

[skonopa]

I agree with the comments above overall. Something is wrong. Even 1 or 10 watts should be impressive..

I also have to agree with the above.

For comparison, not to long after I got my B&K amplifier, which puts out 200 watts per channel, hooked up to a pair of RF-7s, I borrowed an IASCA test disk (that is typically used test and judge high-end car audio systems for competition) and decided to try it on my home setup as well as the car setup. Stupid me decided to get cute using the SPL test tracks and crank my pre-amp (using a Denon AVR-3802 reciever as a pre-amp) and cranked it up all the way, as far as it would go. I had my trusty ol' Rat Shack SPL meter. I swear to the Good Lord Above that I will never do that again! That d@amn thing was pegging the needle on the SPL meter on it's highest setting! That means I was hitting 130dbs on the peaks! And not only that, not a single bit of distortion! It stayed clean the whole way up (and I am willing to bet that amp probably could've gave it even more!) Not only that, some of that bass was hitting so hard, I swore to God, I thought I cracked the glass in my front window. It probably got the neighbors' attention as well. [6]

Now, granted, this B&K amp is definitely a few steps up from the typical Sony reciever, though. Thus most likely, it is that your reciever just does not have the balls to really push it. Yes, there could be something wrong with the speakers themselves (although I highly doubt it, unless the previous owner really abused them), or just your source, but I am willing to bet it is the Sony squeak box you got hooked up to those things. There have been actual tests that showed that supposedly 110 watt Sony is in actuallity putting out only around 35 or 40 watts of "real" power, whereas my B&K amp does indeed put out the full advertised 200 watts (plus some according to one review I remeber seeing). I am willing to bet that at "normal" listening (with the Denon set at -25 on the dial, which is plenty loud for me at typical listening levels - and believe me, you are probably dealing with the biggest metal head on this forum), I am probably barely pushing a watt or two. Also, keep in mind that there is a lot more to it than just the wattage, as the amount of current an amp can deliver is very important. It may be worth it to look into getting something a bit better than the Sony reciever, such as one of the better Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Yamaha, or Harmon-Kardon model of receivers.

[oldmako]

I will try to answer some of the questions which you guys tossed out. Sorry in advance if this is rambling.

The speakers do indeed have two sets of of connections with a bridge between the two. I understand that with this set up one can power the woofers separately from the horns. I dont use them in this manner.

At the 12 O'clock position, the speakers sound just great, but not nearly as loud as one would expect from that position. Fairly loud yes, but the amount of crank is not in propoprtion to the level of volume. The sound is clean and full. The bass response is not yet what I want, but I assume that is due to the new receiver and it's settings. It's a surround sound BS unit and I don't care for it. I want to be able to modulate the tone in the manner I have always done....just plain old bass and treble. I'm a luddite. I will dig into the manual and figure out how to tailor the sound. I know they have the capability to produce BIG bass because when I first set them up they were far far too bassy. I ended upmoving them to a different wall in the room and the difference was dramatic.

The amps protection circuit does not kick in. Neither on my old Pioneer or this sony. I have had the volume as high as full on the old amp and 3 on the new. That just does not seem right to me. That's insane.

The source so far has been a Denon TT through the receivers phono input (a nice surprise) and an Ipod through the CD input. The volume on the iPod is at about 90%. Any higher and the sound becomes ragged and muddy.

I hope that there is nothing wrong with them and I don't believe that there is. They sound great and I would think that the quality of the sound would suffer significantly if there were something wrong.

I realize that twice the power means a very small overall increase in db, but I was hoping that since these mothers have a pair of woofers that the increase in power would provide much better (and fuller) sound. I am optimistic that there is just some muting feature which I have not yet figured out on this receiver. I picked it up used because I got it for next to nothing, it has a phono input, and it will drive two sets of speakers at the same time. I do not use it for the surround sound function. My TV is old and puny....just like my...oh never mind.

At any rate, please accept my thanks for your constructive inputs. The bose are boxed up and on Craigslist. I still have my original Advents from high school and some very nice Polks. My starter wife got the rest of it.

[Marvel]

I have a Sony DE-525, and it would kill me if I still had it hooked up to my LS. Make sure you have it set up for stereo only. I only got this because I needed something in a hurry. I don't do surround stuff at all. It runs hot. The sound is actually not bad, but it has been relegated to a spare room and smaller speakers.

Bruce

[DrWho]

Do you have an SPL meter, or would you mind buying one? They're like $30 at Radio Shack.

I'm kinda curious just how loud you're actually listening at. I'm mostly interested in an A-Weighted slow measurement with it cranked up. Could you also provide a C-weighted fast measurement too?

If that's asking too much, then don't worry about it...it just would really help me pinpoint where the problem might be.

[djk]

"CF3 eat any bose for snacks "

Uhhhh, not these:

http://pro.bose.com/pdf/pro/tech_data/panaray_lt_9402/td_panaray_lt_9402.pdf

106dB/W from a pair of the Bose 4-1/2" drivers (horn loaded), B&C HF (like what Klipsch used to use).

http://pro.bose.com/pdf/pro/tech_data/panaray_lt_24mb/td_panaray_lt_mb24iii_engint.pdf

The 94dB/W on the sub is in 4Pi, so it would be 100dB in 2Pi (on the floor).

[Mallette]

"CF3 eat any bose for snacks "

Uhhhh, not these:

http://pro.bose.com/pdf/pro/tech_data/panaray_lt_9402/td_panaray_lt_9402.pdf

106dB/W from a pair of the Bose 4-1/2" drivers (horn loaded), B&C HF (like what Klipsch used to use).

http://pro.bose.com/pdf/pro/tech_data/panaray_lt_24mb/td_panaray_lt_mb24iii_engint.pdf

The 94dB/W on the sub is in 4Pi, so it would be 100dB in 2Pi (on the floor).

I agree. Those eat your EARS for snacks...

Dave

[RT FAN]

I have a 5-10% decrease in comparable volume when I hook up my Ipod vs my cd player. At the volumes you describe you should have blood shooting out of your ears! Do you still have your old receiver? If so try hooking it up to see if the Sony is your problem.

[oldmako]

The room is approx 14x30 with a 9 foot ceiling. Standard drywall with a pop corn ceiling. It's a big box to fill and the speakers are so clean, that you can fill the hell out of it without distortion. I have yet to hear anything other than clean sound from these.

Today I reset the receiver to factory settings and went from there. I did pick up some volume, probably on the order of 15-20 percent max. Messing with the tone controls helped "fill out" and improve the sound. I am not running any other speaks (no surround) other than the B channel (upstairs) and it's not on currently. But, I cranked Beethovens Piano no. 5 and was able to comfortably sit about 12 feet in front of them with the volume at approx 2-3 O'clock. During the loud passages, it was pretty damn loud, but I sitll think there is some room for improvement. Likewise they sound great when listening to head banger music and blues. These speakers sound amazing. I am a happy guy. Best $240 I ever dropped on stereo gear.

I think the fix for me will be to toss this receiver and find a quality, old fashioned hi end stereo receiver. I can't stand all the crap you have to go through to manipulate the sound when using a surround sound receiver. I most recently was using a mid 70's Sansui 9000 with 160 wrms. That mother could wake the dead. The pioneeer was only used a short while after I sold the Sansui. With it, I could easily listen to music at WOT.

Time to blow some more dough I suppose

[Trey Cannon]

That speaker @ 50 "True" Watts in a room that large standing about 15 ft away should give you somewhere in the 115 -120 db spl.

My guess is that you are under powering the speakers.

Also, check the receivers speaker setings. They should be set to "LARGE" "NO SUB". this will send full range sound to the speaker.

Next, try a CD player or DVD player. the Ipod and TT can be low on output. The Ipod can sound like crap, very easy. The outputs in that thing are crap.

[oldmako]

The settings are as you recommended, large and no sub.

The room is perhaps even a bit larger than what I posted previously. The narrowest section is 14....if I add the stairway it's more like 16. And the stairway is a large opening in the ceiling obviously. It's a big room.

I currently do not own a separate CD player. Mine crapped out and has to be replaced, hence the ipod.

I have read over and over about the efficiency of these speakers but I can't help but wonder if you're right (and that they could use some more juice). But in the meantime, I'm very happy with them and look forward to bringing the rest of my components up to somewhere near the standard of the CF3s.

Thanks to all who replied and scratched their heads. I do like to wail on my ears occasionally.

[russ69]

I'm not sure what the ipod puts out but it may not be enough voltage (maybe someone will know), same thing for your phono cartridge. Borrow a CD player, even a portable, if that doesn't get you there........... you need a BIG FRICKEN AMP! A 110 watt Sony receiver is not all that stout.

Also please protect your hearing, if you are up past 12 o'clock you are driving too hard unless you have a serious mismatch (like a low powered source and an amp that needs a lot of input voltage). Try the CD player and report back.

Thanx, Russ

[Trey Cannon]

Even a $30 cd player from Wal-Mart will do better than the ipod due to the output impedance.

The REZ of the music files you put into your ipod will make a very large difference.

[DrWho]

And generally, the phono setting on newer receivers tends to be very quiet in comparison to other sources.