ClaudeJ1

Yes, they sound good, but not that good. Non linear behavior with non linear speaker loads. Pleasant distortions by way of even order harmonics is what makes the "warm" sounding. Not a bad thing, but not worth the money. Been there done that with Mac, Marantz, HK Citation, Dynaco, Scott, etc................space heaters that need to have the bias babysat and tube replacment/matching. Not worth it for me, but obviously yes for others. Try chip amps.

Horn woofer to 60 Hz., yes, horn sub, no, but it's another project on a long list. I like the idea of a modified F-20, since I already have two Danley DTS-10's. The F-20 has the same footprint as my Lab 12 Tapped Horn that I built (from another designer). A longer and/or taller F-20 type with an 18 would be awesome and get well over 100 Hz., which the tapped horns get funky after about 70 Hz. I really like Lil Mike's folding scheme on the F-20

I would argue though that it makes more sense to have an unfolded horn that covers the 80Hz to 1kHz bandwidth and then add a subwoofer, rather than try to cover 40Hz to 500Hz with a folded horn and run no subwoofer...but then you're not looking at a Jub LF anymore, and then a higher xover frequency makes the 2" less interesting than a 1" in my opinion. Maybe one of these days I'll actually get around to building one and then we can have some blind shootouts [H] This precisely the direction I have gone with my 5 foot "L shaped" MWMs derived bass horn. The next best thing to straight from 60-600 Hz. then to a K-402 and tweeter.

Might be better just to build a Gjallerhorn.

I'm thinking about doubling all the dimensions and using this folding scheme with a beefy 18" driver. That should get me closer to 12 Hz. and be a decent match for my twin DTS-10's. Would that be a "holy crap" setup or what?!

I just got some 18" sub drivers and 6 cubic foot bass reflex cabs to measure and incorporate with a pair of Klipsch KP-200's in a 2.1 configuration. I will be measuring and listening, but, more than likely, I will build some horn enclosures (probably modified F-20's) for those drivers as soon as I get the rest of my measuring gear up and running. The quotes below are from Bill Fitzmaurice, designer of the excellent Tuba HT horn sub: (about direct radiators)<<That 'impact' is probably harmonic distortion, and most likely heard in the midbass. That's part and parcel with a direct radiator. It's what's responsible for being able to directionally locate subs even with 80Hz low pass filtering. It's also what you don't get from a KHorn, or from a folded horn sub. IME folded horn subs work well with horn loaded mains and with direct radiator mains, but direct radiator subs and horn loaded mains aren't a very good combination unless you're running enough of them to keep the THD very low. IMO matching a KHorn and a small sealed sub is akin to a horse riding a man, as opposed to a man riding a horse, especially as a small sealed sub probably has no lower an f3 than the KHorn. That's going to be the problem trying to match the output of horn loaded woofers with direct radiating subs. You can do it, with a wall full of eighteens, but at that point you might as well have just gone with the horn loaded sub anyway. I find that direct radiating tops can work well with horn loaded subs, so long as they have adequate sensitivity to keep up. That could mean using a large high sensitivity woofer, or a line array of smaller woofers. >>

This is the reason I have my 5.0 Klipsch Loudspeaker rig. 3 to 10 watts will reproduce live Led Zeppelin, Metallica etc concert levels at home. The loudest band I have experienced was 10 feet from The Edgar Winter Group in a very small room. I don't think I could get my 5 horns to go that loud, but close. I might try tonight at Midnight! Happy New Year to all.........chris Finally, someone really gets it.

Perfect. In that case I can give you a quit claim deed for my ocean front property in Montana instead of cash. Deal or no deal?

Do those come with a Mac too?

<<Efficient is right, it does not take much power to get the house rockin. When i recommend a 50-100 watt amp i get strange looks. Most will never use 25 watts unless destroying the house is the plan.>> I have had this problem with people for over 40 years. Horn subs are 10-20 db more efficient than those itty bitty cubes with holes in them. So 25 watts in a THT puts out as much sound with WAY less distortion than a DR sub with 250-2,500 Watt, and you won't smoke the voice coil or tear up the cone doing it (or create 40% harmonic distortion in the process).

ditto

That's the way I would do it.

Look up Hoffman's Law and you just might change your mind. But it all depends on how loud you play and how much DISTORTION you can tolerate or get used to. I have heard great sound from direct radiators, but after listening critically, I can hear the extra distortion since I'm spoiled by the ridiculously low distortion of big horns on everything. Heck my tweeters are bigger than most recording studio's WOOFERS since they all seem to use these little 2-way boxes to mix with.

I don't disagree with your or the others here, Joe. Did the more power/headroom thing before I got Khorns. I used 500 WPC on my 4 DIY big Altecs (20 cubic foot boxes when I was 19) I used to crank those puppies up fed by my Crown reel to reel though a McIntosh C-26 Pre Amp> I played music for 600 people at college parties. Got Khorns brand new at 23 years old out of college and recently married. Designed and built a peak power meter and and hitting 10W peaks though a Khorn was too frikkin' loud. Even to a DB freak like me that use to fix amps for my garage band buddies. So I downsized my power and improved my sound at that time. Been there, done that, got the T-shirts. Truth is the best direct radiator drivers have less than 90 db per watt of efficiency, while the best horns can hit 110 db/watt. So a 20 db differential is 100 times the power requirement. So, go big or go home. Only about 1% of people are willing to buy or build big bass horns to REDUCE their power consumption and distortion. The problem with big bass horns is that they require digital time delay to work well. So people prefer to use more power because power is cheap nowadays. It's totally understandable. I was just pointing out that it doesn't always result in better sound, just different sound, like when I went from bad solid state to good tubes. Now that all modern SS amps are good (more or less), it's hard to go wrong, but there are always trade-offs. Based on my engineering experiences, there is more than one way to create EXCELLENT sound today. We have many choices and it's really good to have those choices. Other than potentially greater noise, more watts doesn't always get you better sound, but it's hard to get a bad amplifier today, so it's never money wasted if you buy it right.

I disagree with the notion of your first comment. It's hard to beat the synergy and low noise of integrated amplifiers, all other things being equal (which they seldom are). In the case of Onkyo, their WRAT amplifier is first class. Very fast and detailed. It drives my K-402/K1133 Horns beautifully and in a noiseless fashion. The only time your comment has validity is when you need more POWER to drive direct radiators (10-100 times more). Since I only use about 10--30 Milliwatts though 8 ohms, the receiver's 100W/ch power section is overkill for an all horn system. I then use the same speaker output to drive my digital Xover for max voltage input before PEQ. the output of that goes to a Lepai 2020 Tripath Chip amp (about 6W on a good day) to my LaScala-like woofer section and I only paid $26 for it. The only reason I do that is because the woofer has a different sensitivity and needs more voltage at it's input to balance against the passive top end. It's hard to beat an integrated amplifier with separates, unless you need more BEEF, but that is NOT always the case, as you suggest. Horn woofers and mids don't need the kind of power you speak of. I have owned and used McIntosh, Marantz, Scott, Harman Kardon Citation II, McIntosh, and Dynaco tube amps. Also the following SS: Dynaco, Crown, Hafler, VSP Labs (designed the power supply for it), Adcom, Bryston, and Carver. Even I have to admit they all sound a little "different" but not necessarily better. So, your term "most" would be true simply because "most" people to not have the cash, space, or nads (anti WAF) to use HORN woofer and Subwoofers in their home. The most IM distortion comes from the area where cones move the most, which is the BASS section. YET 99% of people, even Klipsch Heads insist on having Direct Radiator bass, where the greatest distortion and POWER DEMAND exists. A tweeter moves the least and creates the least distortion, yet that is the first place people put a horn. Backwards thinking if you ask me, AND it requires MORE POWER to do, hence the external amplifier requirements.

Before I upgraded to the DE-250, I had to use twin DE-10 with ME-10 horns per channel to get the tweeter level up by 3 db, so my former installation agrees with your findings.

Spuds are great. I helped a friend build and install 3 of them in his HT room. I have two DTS-10 "Super Spuds" but I think that 4 of the regular spuds is a better choice. Heck Danley's president uses 4 spuds in his home and I'm sure he could have whatever he wanted there, but chose those.

I had tubes on my Khorns in my 20's. McIntosh 240, Marantz 8b (my fave), Harmon Kardon Citation, Scott, Dynaco Mk III, etc. They all TROUNCED the SS amps of the the day. BUT, after Dr. Matti Otala discovered that SS amps need to address Transient Intermodulation Distortion (TIM) with his paper published in the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, all of the solid state amps had improved by the 1980's. Back in 1977, I met Saul Marantz himself at a Hi Fi show in Detroit and spent more than my fair share of time with him. He had sold his company to Superscope of Japan and was VP of Sales/Marketing for Dahlquist. They were running tubes on the Dalquist and SOLID STATE on the outboard Subwoofer section. I asked him why? He said that tubes were great on midrange and treble with their desirable even order harmonics behavior (what you all are preferring on the Cornwalls) but he felt that any woofer section had better transient response (better motor control) with the inherent lower source impedance of transformerless Solid State Amplifiers. Also, he said it was less expensive to Bi-Amp this way, since you could get more "woofer watts" a lot cheaper, with better overall performance. Since you still have your Adcom, I would suggest you match the VOLTAGE gain of both amps somehow and split off the woofer section, so you can drive the horns with the tubes and the woofer section with the Adcom. Then you can do a post to say Saul Marantz was RIGHT!!

I have had an Oppo 83 SE for a while now. Killer DAC's in the SE part for 2.1. Anyhow, this recording is scary good. The interview is up close with PWK and he even jokes a bit about "infidelity."

PM sent

I upgraded my AV receiver, so I have an extra Onkyo 706 for sale cheap. It can be used as a Pre-Pro since it has Pre-outs. It has phono input for a turntable, 2-Optical inputs, 2- co-ax inputs, can be used for 2.1, 5.1 7.1, 2.0, 5.0, or 7.0. It has 7 analog inputs for 7.1 with external DAC (I was using the Sabre DACs in my Oppo). It should do everything you want, including the use of 7, 100 W power amps. PM me if interested.

so it appears that keeping it between 80-90 for normal listening with no female in the room is "keeping it REAL." No one I know of has ever sat in the middle of a symphony orchestra, and the "average" distance would be 20 rows back, with the inverse square law and room reverberant field meet, which should be at least 10 db down from the first row.........is my guess. The last time I went to a Symphony, I coudn't believe how low of a volume it was in the quiet passages, and the only time it got loud is briefly. The most dynamic thing I have ever experienced is the Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring."

I try to keep my levels in the 80-85 db range (JBL used to recommend 75). This keeps things loud enough and detailed enough. Based on your posted letter, I use about 1/100th of 1 watt to do this (10 milliwatts) or 20 db less, which is 1/4 as loud, which agrees with my own measurements of amplifier power going to my passive Xover. A 300 Watt amplifier is a 25 dbWatt amplifier, which means you can reach 125 db peaks, which are pretty obnoxious to my ears. I would say YES you have tons of headroom. That would translate about about 45 db headroom for me. The only thing I wish to point out is that Signal to Noise ratios in amplifiers are referenced to full output, so, all other things being equal, the guy with less powerful amplifiers will also have less noise. JBL hit the nail on the head for me. I found that as I started using better speakers, my listening levels went down. K Horns were the first speaker where I had that experiance. I cranked them to 120 db a few times for the novelty, but that was in the first 6 months of ownership and about 12 years ago. Recently, I pulled out a Rat Shack meter and measured 85 db continuous for what I considered about as loud as I want to listen nowadays and 75 db for about normal levels. At these levels I can hear all of the details and do not feel the urge to turn it up. Disclaimer - this was not on Heritage speakers, but the hot rodded speakers everyone uses around here should be the same. Yo, Mr tigerwoodKhorns. Methinks we are twin sons of different mothers on this issue. Agree 100% and also read the JBL thing. Hope we never need hearing aids in our old age unlike some of the less disciplined power freaks, eh?

Any recommendations regarding a sub plate amp? I have a couple of extra ones I will let go real cheap. I used to drive my MWMs with them. Do you still have my number?

Christmas Special: $30 shipped for these 4 remaining titles Sold. PM me where to send the money order.