Audible Nectar

RF-5 is probably closer to the RF3 than the RF7. The RC-7 is a noticeable upgrade - a larger center is a good idea, since up to 75% of your sound in 5.1 sources comes through the center channel. There is no disadvantage in going RF-5 and RC-7 - the bigger you can go on speakers, the better. Get what your wallet and room can handle. If your wallet can handle the RF-7's as mains, get 'em (are you sure they won't fit??) Speakers are the one purchase in audio that can take a good sounding system and make it kick a$$. Get the MOST speaker your budget and room can handle, and you'll enjoy the benefits for years to come, with less desire to upgrade. This is one area where spending more money really gives tangible results, much more so than any other single audio product. If you can upgrade only the mains or the center, I would upgrade the center, especially if this system gets a significant amount of HT usage. (If you only listen to HT a very small percentage of the time - that is you are mainly a 2 channel listener, you may rethink this). And don't be flustered - if the dealer will let you swap, and you feel the need, then by all means do so. You've had some time to listen to your system - only you can decide what is right for you. If you are not happy with the RF3 package and your dealer will let you upgrade, and your wallet and room can handle it, then do it. Think big ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! A Beast is Lurking.........To be unleashed May 2002 This message has been edited by dndphishin on 04-27-2002 at 04:29 PM

Yes Seb, it's almost May ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! A Beast is Lurking.........To be unleashed May 2002

BBB asked: "If you could return your RF-7s for the full list price to the authorized dealer you purchased them from for a trade in on a BRAND NEW set of speakers by ANY other manufacturer what would you choose? Dollar for dollar, Manufacturer Suggested Retail Price, what would you buy that included the same type of warranty as Klipsch? Im not being a wise guy. I am totally serious. What manufacturer offers better sound and better quality for this amount of money ?" IMO, the only thing that would be an improvement would be Heritage - a Cornwall or larger. Yes, you would need to get these used at your price point - although 2 LaScalas and 2 Heresys new would likely be in the $4400 range. Other than that, these speakers don't exist (IMO). That's why we're here. I am not just giving you the "party line" - I first heard Klipsch 17 years ago, back in the mid eighties - and have yet to find any consumer line product offering such sound today at Klipsch prices. In fact, I can't find any consumer available horn loaded product, period. (Unless you go vintage Altec, JBL Pro, or Edgar horns, which aren't consumer line product). I have 2 Cornwall II's and an Academy up front (both in mint or near mint shape) and 2 Chorus as surrounds (fair condition, but sound great). I have a total of $1500 invested in all 5 speakers. If I had it to do over again, I would not change it. I would also put this setup against any new 5 channel setup at 3 times that price - including the RF series. That said, the RF series is no slouch - they certainly do hold their own. Ultimately, the decision is yours as to what to do with your RF-7's, but I believe that you will have difficulty finding that level of performance at an equivalent price. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! A Beast is Lurking.........To be unleashed May 2002

If there is candlewax on the cabinet, are there any recommended options? TCS: This is what happens when you burn candles. If my wife was caught burning candles on my Klipsch - well, lets just say that the results would be worse than when mom catches you having chocolate cake for breakfast ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! A Beast is Lurking.........To be unleashed May 2002

Based on your initial comments, I think that my HT will be best served with the recently acquired Chorus pair as surrounds (5.1 setup). My Cornwall II's are mains - I intend to move the Chorus in as mains to test them out a little. The repair on my one Chorus is supposed to be finished today (in for repair of broken binding post), so I'll report how it goes when that happens. To improve the bass on the Chorus, try corner placement. Otherwise, add big subbage when you can ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! A Beast is Lurking.........To be unleashed May 2002

ShapeShifter has the right idea. Horns are too radical and different for most of the buying public to accept - not to mention the in-your-face sonic presentation of horns. People want to be comforted by the fact that others have the brand/type that they do - instead of looking for the "sonic truth". When I heard Klipsch for the first time, back in the mid eighties, I said "That's it!!! That's the sound I am looking for!". I was sold in seconds. Give a damn about how they look (not that Klipsch Heritage look bad, but the size deters some) - it's all about the sound, baybee! I spent 10+ years looking for other speakers in the consumer market that do what the Klipsch do, that I could afford - since 2000+ for speakers wasn't to be. Guess what - they don't exist ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! A Beast is Lurking.........To be unleashed May 2002

Yeah, Chad's a bass freak - I purchased some sub gear from him. He and "the ears" (one of our distinguished forum members) would get along great! Most pop/rock low end comes in at 40hz and above. This will suffice for most "classic rock and pop" listening. As you go lower, you are getting into the frequencies that you can "feel" - which are more common in electronic, classical, and organ music - as well as movies. It depends on your use and listening preferences. I'll tell you from experience that rating subs from specs is difficult, at best (as is the case with most electronics). You need to listen to them if possible - in your environment. If this is not possible, I would look to user reviews and comments - specs are guidelines only, and will not tell you how a sub sounds in real world usage. If you could tell us more about your system, listening room, usage, and budget, you will likely get several recommendations on possible choices. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! A Beast is Lurking.........To be unleashed May 2002

No, it's not overkill. The PW 2200 is a good sub - and it never hurts to have the extra. You can always dial the output of the sub down if it's a bit too much - but it's more difficult to turn an underperforming sub up. If you upgrade mains, the PW 2200 will be of more use too, due to it's quality and quantity of output. The PW 2200 is excellent for it's price (especially for those in Canada) - I would stay with it, if your budget allows. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! A Beast is Lurking.........To be unleashed May 2002

Just piling on here to say: DO IT! As always with Klipsch, the speakers will sound as "quality" as the gear that you hook up to it. Go as far as your room and budget will go. It will be worthwhile. Heritage in HT is bliss. Chris: That room rocks!! ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! A Beast is Lurking.........To be unleashed May 2002

I see this as a matter of dollars. For example, if you want the qualities you listed as desirable, you can find it in the current or used Heritage line (as well as the "descendant" models such as Cornwalls, Chorus, Fortes, etc. available used). New Heritage will cost more than $2000. While it is true that recent Heritage releases aren't the same build that they used to be, they are still better than most sold at the time. I have 14 year old Cornwall II's - supposedly what would be considered the "lesser quality build era" and they are still rock solid and good sounding. I am still proud to own them. I disagree with the "Bose surpasses Klipsch for quality" opinion as well, especially in the driver area. Klipsch drivers will smoke a Bose easily. I do agree with some comments regarding the general build of the RF series though - cheap feet, grills, and cabinet build don't help the RF series. I think that a customer would gladly pay a few bucks extra for a set of RF-7's with the proper aesthetic appointments. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! A Beast is Lurking.........To be unleashed May 2002

I made the trip down to the ATL this weekend, to the distinguished domain of the edster00, to pick up the used Chorus pair that he had been holding for me. That was enough reason to drive down there, but I had alterior motives as well. Since I knew what electronics edster00 has in his stable (Welbourne Labs Moondog Monoblocks, Cary Audio preamp, McIntosh CD and Khorns), I saw this as an opportunity to see and hear what all of the ruckus about tubes and horns was about........ On my terms - that is to say, MY music!!! I'm a Solid State rock and roll addict by trade. I have attended hundreds of rock concerts since my teens, encompassing such acts as the Grateful Dead, Phish, Pink Floyd, Crosby Stills and Nash, The Who, The Rolling Stones, and my latest addiction, the Colorado based String Cheese Incident. So I have naturally become accustomed to high wattage Solid State amplification, with high output horn loaded PA speakers. My love for Klipsch is based on their ability to give that big concert sound in the home - the only consumer line product capable of doing so, without going with pro gear. This setup does have drawbacks - it "rocks the nation" - but can be a bit overwhelming for conversational listening. Ed explained this as being like a sports car driving in town - it longs to be driven, but is overkill for a slow Sunday cruise. That said, my HT would likely rank in the best 1 or 2% of all systems out there, but quiet listening is not a strength of my system - rocking it out is. I'll first say that edster00 is a good salesman, and a gentleman. My friend and I arrived on Saturday morning, and Ed led us to the downstairs listening room (which is under construction, but still adequate for a sound demo). My Chorus-in-waiting are hooked up to the Welbourne Labs Moondogs, playing softly in the background. The difference in the Solid State and tube setup is immediately apparent - silky smooth, captivating sound that draws you in. This is with softer jazz/instumental music though - and Ed wasted no time by inviting me to pop in some of the music that I brought along. I will mention that I like Ed's musical taste too - I spotted such morsels in his collection as Jerry Garcia Acoustic Band, Weather Report, and Pink Floyd's DSOTM (Mobile Fidelity version too!) So much for stereotyping tube-o-philes as strictly the easy listening type! The session began with String Cheese Incident's newest release Outside Inside, which gave me a chance to see just how well those flea-powered SET amps drive rock and roll through Klipsch speakers. This studio CD release offers hard driving rock tracks, groove, and rootsy bluegrass material - this band covers a wide range of musical styles, and can shift gears on a dime. In addition, the band's instumental setup is a bit unusual for a rock and roll band - they feature Michael Kang, who plays electric and acoustic mandolins and fiddles - he functions as the electric guitar with the electric mando when the music calls for it. Bill Nershi is an accomplished bluegrass flat picker, and Kyle Hollingsworth plays all manner of keys and has an extensive jazz background - he is IMO the best individual player in the band. Travis on drums and Keith on bass form a rock solid, tight rhythm unit. SCI is incredibly "tight" live - they perform 80 shows a year, and honed their skills doing 150+ shows per year in the first five years of the band's existence. The CD also features Karl Denson on saxophone. This recipe makes for a wide range of tone and musical feel - ideal for testing the Chorus/Moondogs. We turned it up a bit, beyond conversational level, about 80 db or so. This is where the SET combo excels - low to moderate volume where the ultimate in soundstage and tonal quality is desired. And do they deliver! It's easy to understand the allure of Klipsch with tubes - it truly is like a fine wine or ale - something you really SAVOR I was genuinely prepared for a letdown when the increase in volume came - where I expected the SET amp to fall short of expectations. I tried to be realistic about this. I knew that the 115+ db levels acheivable with SS amplification wasn't going to happen with 3.5 watts of SET. However, I was looking for some ability to rock the house a little As the volume was increased to the low 90's db range, the sound remained tight - along with that great tone and image. Above that, the sound begins to run together a bit - not annoyingly so, but certainly noticeable to these SS ears. Now it's time to load up the bass. The next selection is Phish's live version of the Talking Heads' classic "Cities". Bass player Mike Gordon plays a Modulus bass - similar to the one used by Grateful Dead's Phil Lesh. Saying that Gordon's bass has presence in the mix is like saying that a bull has presence in a china closet. This otta make those little Moondogs puke The setup hung right in there - much better than expected. I have heard this cut repeatedly, and use it to test bass in other systems, and was very impressed. Again, low 90's volume levels was very tight and controlled, but lost a bit of the "tightness" above that level. This track is demanding though - and I must say that I was very pleasantly surprised with the volume overall. Listening at 90-95db is really quite full volume, if not ear splitting, but is quite enough where the best image, smoothness, and clarity is desired. Now completely satisfied with the sound of the Chorus, we now switch the Moondogs over to the Klipschorns. Since Ed's listening room is not finished (sheetrock yet to be installed) the Khorns are not ideally set up, but they were certainly serviceable - mostly lacking a bit in bass response, but still worth the listen. The extra 3db efficiency and horn loaded woofage make all of the difference with the SET. The difference is jaw-dropping This is the ultimate combo. The Klipschorns have such presence and image - drool, drool Back to String Cheese incident again, this time a 20 minute live version of "Impressions". This was too good to be true. Ed, you've addicted me, and cost me future dollars....all of you tube geeks (and I mean this in a good way) were right on the money. And for those of you who believe that these tube setups are for classical/jazz/doctors office music lovers only, as PWK would say, "bulls#it". Then Ed made an interesting suggestion, selecting some Christmas music to play through the setup. I'll go with the flow! Vocal and cello. I never knew that a vocal could be so /involving/ - this gear really does suck you into the music. Owning such gear has this additional benefit - it keeps you listening to new and varied music. Music that would not interest me much otherwise completely becomes an experience with the tube/Khorn combo. I can picture listening to such a setup, as Colin would say "lights out and tubes glowing", on Christmas Eve. Unfortunately, time was getting away from us - we shot almost 4 hours in what seemed like no time at all. We loaded up the Chorus into the borrowed Volvo (which would later sustain $6100 in damage in a golfball/baseball sized hailstorm coming back to Illinois) and headed downtown, as we had tickets for - you guessed it - the String Cheese Incident at the Fox Theatre. My friend Mark commented during the show from our front row center Loge seats, "It sounds as good as the Khorns". Big thanks to you Ed, for putting all of the reviews and Klipsch/tube discussion into something tangible - nothing like real proof. I cannot thank you enough for how welcome you made us feel, and for showing us the goods! I sincerely hope that we cross paths again - it was a pleasure to deal with you, and to come to "The ATL". Hopefully I will have occasion to do it again sometime. If it were not for the fact that I have a schedule, I might still be listening to your Klipschorns. Like the old joke goes - How do you know when a Deadhead/Klipschhead has been at your house - A: He's still there Also a huge thanks to all who have discussed this subject on the 2 channel forum. The lively debate really kindled my interest in this topic, and your posts have convinced yet another Klipsch forum member of the virtues of tubes and horns. I now have a long term goal of acquiring a set of Khorns so I can start playing with tubes. I will not replace my SS HT anytime soon, but now see the benefits of a dedicated 2 channel system. Tubes and Klipschorns are like the rock band Phish: Both are "Ice cream for the ears" ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! A Beast is Lurking.........To be unleashed May 2002 This message has been edited by dndphishin on 04-24-2002 at 12:22 AM

I find toe in very necessary. When I picked up my Cornwall II's the seller had them set up on each side of his entertainment center pointing straight ahead - and they sounded average, at best. I was able to tell that the speakers were in good working order, but suffered sonically because of it. No wonder he sold them - he had little flexibility in placement, so he was not getting the performance he should have. The slightest adjustments in toe alter the soundstage - it is a difference that even my wife picks up on. When I first got the Cornwalls home, the different placements and toe created quite a variation in sound. This is a problem for those with the larger Klipsch - if there is no room for adjustment in placement, it becomes difficult to maximize their performance. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! A Beast is Lurking.........To be unleashed May 2002

Coming soon to the 2 channel forum: "Solid state rocker discovers tubes". I'm still working on it, but I'm off to work now - I'll post it soon! ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! A Beast is Lurking.........To be unleashed May 2002

I just returned from picking up a set of Chorus to use as surrounds in my system. I have Cornwall II's as mains, so I will move the Chorus in as mains for a bit just to see how they do. I have a feeling that the Chorus will be very similar to the Cornwall II's. I'll post my findings when this happens - one of my Chorus needs a set of new binding posts installed first. The Chorus come in a size that's very easy to work with. I like the "antique grand" look of the Cornwalls better but 4 in my room is not feasible. The quality of the Chorus is no secret to these ears though - they are very underrated (but this doesn't seem to be reflected in the prices on ebay, though). ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! A Beast is Lurking.........To be unleashed May 2002

I have a set of 1989 Cornwall II's in Oak Oil. I also just picked up a Walnut Oil Chorus pair that could use an oiling also. These have not been oiled for some time - they are somewhat dry. I've had the Cornwall II's for 7 months or so, and I think they could use an oiling, but have never done this before. Any special considerations here? Can I give them too much oil in a single application? Since they havent been oiled in quite some time, could I do more harm than good to the veneer? Mostly, I just want to avoid doing something stupid due to my relative inexperience on this topic. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! A Beast is Lurking.........To be unleashed May 2002

OK, I've been out of town picking up speakers - gotta jump in here. 1. OHHHHHHH YES!!!!! Did I say yes, you should re-release the Cornwall? Yes, Yes, Yes!! Why? Because it was, and "hope"fully will be, the price/performance leader in full range mains. This speaker has great image, slam, max SPL, and excellent low bass extension (lower bass than the LaScalas and Belles, which makes the Cornwall a much better value). 2. I think the horizontal horns are the way to go, as a stock offering, but consider offering the vertical mount as a special order item. You will have some HT gurus wanting one of the vertical mounts as a center. 3 and 4. By "decorator" style, I'm assuming this means the natural wood baffle (is this referred to as "designer" series?) The customer could choose between the wood baffle look, or to use a grille. I do like the "removable backs" like on the older Cornwalls. Easy to see and access the guts. 6. $2200-2400 range should be appropriate. 7. This is a great idea - there are lots of good Cornwalls out there with bad cabinets and great drivers. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! A Beast is Lurking.........To be unleashed May 2002

I just returned from picking up a set of Chorus for my HT (surrounds to be used with Cornwall II and Academy center). I am glad to hear that the Chorus are a close sonic match - if Jim can switch all four and not miss anything, they should be good as surrounds in my HT. I had no room for a second set of Cornwall II's - so I figure the smaller footprint of the Chorus is just what the doctor ordered. In my past demo experience, the sound of the Chorus and Cornwall II's are basically interchangeable - there's not much difference in them. I plan to try them as mains for a bit, just to see how they stack up against my Cornwall II's in my listening room. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! A Beast is Lurking.........To be unleashed May 2002

When I had the Velodyne (CT 150) the auto sense wasn't very effective, especially during those soft passages. The auto sense was not sensitive enough, so I ended up not using it. Leaving the sub powered on shouldn't be of any particular harm, with the exception of increased electricity usage. You can turn it off when not in use, if you choose. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! A Beast is Lurking.........To be unleashed May 2002

My experience with Klipsch says to "overbuy" on the sub. Due to the high sensitivity of Klipsch gear, it seems that anything less than "big league subbage" will do. Keeping up with Klipsch gear is tough for many sub products. So, I would buy two. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! A Beast is Lurking.........To be unleashed May 2002

Forrest asked: "What is your agenda here with JBL? Everybody with any history know how knows JBL are OK drivers and mediocre speakers design and way overpriced because of the brand name they build." I can't speak for Tom, but my agenda is price vs. performance ratio. I just got rid of a Velodyne CT 150 and replaced it with two JBL's and a Crown power amp - it eats the Velo's performance like an appetizer, a man vs. a boy. If you are so hung up on us JBL "disciples" having 20 hz bass, maybe you can start a fund for us, so we can all have a pair of SVS Ultras! Just think Forrest, you could become a hero, by saving us all. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! A Beast is Lurking.........To be unleashed May 2002

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL My sides hurt!! Now I am admittedly biased, but these folks are truly Klueless. I am a member of that forum, but I think I'll leave this smelly thing alone - looks like trouble. Horns don't work for HT? Puhleeeeeze. Especially this quote : "how 'bout Klipsh's most famous speaker the Klipshhorn. Huge, deep horn in a very wide speaker cabinet that's designed to be placed in the corners of the room. That's about the worst speaker design there is." I almost shot a mouthful of root beer on my monitor! Where's that little yellow pin when you need it? I am curious about the Sound and Vision response measurements though - I wonder what's up with that? Do the Reference really measure as poorly on those graphs? I have Heritage, so I am not as familiar with the RF's although I have heard RF demos before. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! A Beast is Lurking.........To be unleashed May 2002 This message has been edited by dndphishin on 04-12-2002 at 11:09 PM

mOOn - explain this to the dealer. Show him what you are looking at. Tell your local dealer "sure, I want to support you, and get factory warranty, but what a difference in price here! Your package pricing is flexible, right?" Of course those prices are flexible! It's negotiation time! The dealer has enough margin that he/she can still make money at below tag prices. Now maybe your local dealer won't match that price, but he/she may still give you a deal somewhere between the online price and the price the dealer is asking for the gear now. It may be worth paying a little more for that local service and factory warranty. It's certainly worth asking your local dealer, and if the dealer thinks you may walk and buy it online, then the dealer may sell at a better price. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! A Beast is Lurking.........To be unleashed May 2002

m00n - that looks like a good system. The H/K goes well with the Klipsch, IMO. Hopefully you have return/exchange privilege on the gear, so you can swap out stuff if you need to make changes. Your decisions will be validated (or invalidated) when you get the gear home. If you end up buying an RSW12 or 15, though, that's OK ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! A Beast is Lurking.........To be unleashed May 2002

Pay particular attention to the amplifier used - differences in amps are more apparent with horns. I don't know if you are in the market for new amplification; try different combinations. Have your wife do some listening once you have narrowed down some choices. Some amps that are thought of as "warm" (smoother top end) include B&K, Denon, and Parasound - maybe the forum members can comment some more on this. I've heard similar comments about the Sherbourne 5 channel units too, but no clue if they would be in your budget. For the ultimate in top end smoothness check out the tube comments over in the 2 channel forum. There are not many options in tubes for HT, but the tube fans praise the smoothness in the highs. Could you give us a rundown of the system you are purchasing, and how you are going to use it? It will help with recommendations. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! A Beast is Lurking.........To be unleashed May 2002 This message has been edited by dndphishin on 04-12-2002 at 09:21 PM

Particularly interesting is the lower response of the Forte - 10 hertz lower on the chart. Thanks for posting these ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! A Beast is Lurking.........To be unleashed May 2002 This message has been edited by dndphishin on 04-12-2002 at 09:05 PM