Again on Jubilee...

[ZAKO]

Only you Mike.

[kaiser SET say]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalvin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bill H.]

OK !

[edwinr]

I reckon the ideal situation is to have no x-over whatsoever. If you've got to have one, you would imagine the best x-over is the one with the least components. Yet some of the best speakers in the world for reproducing vocals appear to use the most complex looking x-overs I've ever seen. Probably my all-time favorite speaker for reproducing vocals is the BBC LS 3/5a. I's only a tiny two way bookshelf but it too employs quite a complex x-over network.

[Guest " "]

" I's only a tiny two way bookshelf but it too employs quite a complex x-over network."

It's difficult to use a simple 1st order xover in a two way...espeacially a two way with a large woofer and a low xover point. One of the challenges is cone beaming....directly related to the diameter of the driver...the larger the cone...the lower the beaming frequency is.

In a 15" woofer, beaming begins at 904hz.

With a 1st order xover, even if you crossover at 500hz, at lot of music material still exists within the woofer at 904 hz. This is one reason 3rd order xovers find their way into 2 way systems.

You can use simple 1st order xovers in a two way, if you use a higher crossover. During the 70's, 2 way xover points of 2000hz-3500hz were very popular.

One advantage of using a woofer in a folded horn, is that the the exit path can be designed to absorb much of the beaming material. In the case of the Khorn, very little material above 400hz makes it out the exit channel, in a LaScala little above 500hz makes it out, and in a belle little above 600hz makes it out.....so using a 1st order xover crossed over at 400hz, 500hz is ok since the beaming at 904hz would never make it to your ears.

[fini]

Where's the problem with vertical angles here? Only a little taller than a Khorn.

Hey! I wear Adrenalines, too!

[mark1101]

I run a lot and have always liked Brooks. [Y]

[Batmans Robin]

I reckon the ideal situation is to have no x-over whatsoever. If you've got to have one, you would imagine the best x-over is the one with the least components. Yet some of the best speakers in the world for reproducing vocals appear to use the most complex looking x-overs I've ever seen. Probably my all-time favorite speaker for reproducing vocals is the BBC LS 3/5a. I's only a tiny two way bookshelf but it too employs quite a complex x-over network.

Maybe this is a silly question but is that speaker actually designed to face downwards like in the photo? Is that what gives the small package more bass, like a separate subwoofer firing down kind of effect?

[Batmans Robin]

I have not heard this theater speaker as of yet because no one will tell me the name of a theater that has one.

http://www.klipsch.com/find-a-theater/

Perhaps the link will help in that endeavor.

Carl

Thank you Carl but what this locator does is tell you what theaters use Klipsch speakers of any kind but not Jubilee speakers specifically. I appreciate your help though.

[Marvel]

is that speaker actually designed to face downwards like in the photo? Is

The front baffle is just out of the cabinet on its face so you can see the crossover.Here's is a pic of some made by Rogers (the BBC licensed the design).

[Batmans Robin]

I thought that looked a little too wild, even for the British. It looks much better as a conventional speaker no doubt about it.

Now, here is another question. If this little BBC speaker is as good as you guys say, how can that be, when IT IS NOT A HORN SPEAKER AND NOT A HORN-LOADED speaker! PWK mentioned in his SEVEN (?) CARDINAL RULES, Inter Modulation Distortion is very bad on cone speakers (paraphrase).

I am guessing the BBC mini speaker might RIVAL THE JUBILEE on vocals?!?!?!?!?!?! based on what people have said in this thread.

[Islander]

Paul Klipsch is sometimes referred to as PWK, but never as "PWK". I don't know your intention, but if you're trying to make fun of the man's name, this forum is really not the place to do it.

[Coytee]

I am guessing the BBC mini speaker might RIVAL THE JUBILEE on vocals?!?!?!?!?!?! based on what people have said in this thread.

I'm sure it bests the Jubilee. Remember, horns are honky

[Y]

[edwinr]

I thought that looked a little too wild, even for the British. It looks much better as a conventional speaker no doubt about it.

Now, here is another question. If this little BBC speaker is as good as you guys say, how can that be, when IT IS NOT A HORN SPEAKER AND NOT A HORN-LOADED speaker! PWK mentioned in his SEVEN (?) CARDINAL RULES, Inter Modulation Distortion is very bad on cone speakers (paraphrase).

I am guessing the BBC mini speaker might RIVAL THE JUBILEE on vocals?!?!?!?!?!?! based on what people have said in this thread.

LOL! The Brits later worked out that the driver and x-over sounded better when inserted into the speaker cabinet.... []

Batman's Robin, I owned an LS 3/5a for many years. I was stupid and sold it to a friend because he'd been pestering me for ages to sell them. I still regret the sale. To answer your question, the LS 3/5a is the very best speaker I have ever heard for reproducing vocals. Better than my Martin Logans, better than my expemsive headphones, better than anything. Maybe the reason they sound so good is because they don't go too loud. They don''t exite room resonances and stuff like that so that the room doesn't interfere so much with the sound coming from the speakers. The problem is... they just don't go loud enough in larger rooms.

Now I suppose big horn speakers tend to beam the sound toward the listener and in doing so may in some small way avoid room interference (?) The upshot is that big horns can sound real good too. But is the Jubilee better than the LS 3/5a at the same listening levels? Whew, I wouldn't want to put money on that.

Now this intermodulated distortion thing you're talking about... I know PWK was a big fan of less is better. But is this really the case? What's wrong with a little distortion? Aren't the the harmonics in music classed as a type of distortion? Without this distortion, music would sound flat and boring. Maybe that's another reason why the LS 3/5a sounds so darn good. They're throwing in a good dose of distortion to sweeten the sound. If that is really the case, all I can say is "Gimme some more suger, baby!".

Here's a pic of an LS 3/5a clone, the beautiful 2009 Harbeth HL-P3 nursed by it's designer and Harbeth owner, Alan Shaw. The BBC sound lives on...

[Batmans Robin]

Here's a pic of an LS 3/5a clone, the beautiful 2009 Harbeth HL-P3 nursed by it's designer and Harbeth owner, Alan Shaw. The BBC sound lives on...

There is no way even Coyote could hold a Jubilee like that in his hands. Advantage: LS 3/5a.

[Blvdre]

Now this intermodulated distortion thing you're talking about... I know PWK was a big fan of less is better. But is this really the case? What's wrong with a little distortion? Aren't the the harmonics in music classed as a type of distortion? Without this distortion, music would sound flat and boring. Maybe that's another reason why the LS 3/5a sounds so darn good. They're throwing in a good dose of distortion to sweeten the sound.

Various distortions created during a live performance, are just that, part of the performance, pleasing or not. But you do not want any further distortion created by the playback system when reproducing this performance. I think you're also infering that distortion can be pleasing, but I don't think anyone would make the argument that IM distortion is pleasing. It is particularly irritating and unpleasant.

[Batmans Robin]

Various distortions created during a live performance, are just that, part of the performance, pleasing or not. But you do not want any further distortion created by the playback system when reproducing this performance. I think you're also infering that distortion can be pleasing, but I don't think anyone would make the argument that IM distortion is pleasing. It is particularly irritating and unpleasant.

What you are claiming sounds reasonable but you provide no data to support it.

The fact is, the little BBC monitor must have a lot of IM Distortion to it if we are to accept PWK's DATA, not speculation. The fact is, the LS 3/5a is a very very highly regarded speaker with many web pages run by fans of it that I have discovered and looked at last night.

High IMD but highly regarded.

I want to hear from a learned engineer such as Doctor Who rather than read unscientific musings from the uncredentialed.

[Blvdre]

Look at this lovely goat I've gotten. Trolling can be fun!

[Marvel]

There is no way even Coyote could hold a Jubilee like that in his hands. Advantage: LS 3/5a.

The LS 3/5a was designed as a nearfield monitor, while doing remote recordings and live feeds. To fill a large room with the volume of a symphony, the advantage goes to the Jubilee.

Approximately 100k of the LS 3/5a have been sole since its introduction. I would love to have a pair.

[DrWho]

Some of my latest reading has indicated that a perfectly linear Bl might not produce as many IMD products as might otherwise be implied from direct extrapolation of PWK's findings (which were based on measuring very imperfect drivers)...I'm not sure if perfect would yield zero or not, but that's more just an intellectual problem rather than a practical one. I guess what I should say is that non-linearities in the driver's suspension and motor are major sources of IMD and some of the modern drivers address that quite remarkably.

I dunno if the LS 3/5a has fancy drivers or not, but on the surface it looks like an oldschool cone and dome. I've heard some great sound in the nearfield from similar speakers....in fact, I wonder how they compare to something like the Jamo C803:
http://www.jamo.com/Default.aspx?ID=5908&M=Shop&PID=17140&ProductID=17852

I think I'd still go with the big horns though...much more involving.

Btw, I agree that we don't want to add distortions when the goal is accurate reproduction - I might also mention that I personally feel the goal of accurate reproduction also implies that the art is left up to the musicians making the music. It's a whole nother can of worms if you want to start enhancing things...