Found a new love...Forte II

[carbon summit]

I wasn't thinking about replacing the Forte IIs, just curious about the Reference line.

[wuzzzer]

I do believe that if I had hung on to the RF-7s long enough to hear them with my Emotiva amp and upgraded the crossover networks I might have kept them. At the time I stumbled across the Forte IIs they were a deal too good to pass up. I would still like to hear a properly set up and modified RF-7 system.

[John Chi-town]

I have owned a pair of Forte II's since early 1992. They truly are a "Lifetime" speaker. I will never part with mine. I am new to this forum, and have a couple of questions regarding upgrading the crossovers and midrange/tweeter.

Some may consider the question crazy, but is there a bennefit of upgrading if the speakers are still in top working order and never abused, as I am the original owner?

What can I expect as far as overall sonic improvement? Ballpark figure on costs and who to work with would be helpful as well.

Thanks in advance.

John

[popbumper]

John:

I sent you a PM. If you have any questions, please ask.

Chris

[merkin]

I must like them, I have 6 forte II's and two quartets. I was using 5 of them in my 7.1 HT until recently. I then got the bells and a lascala for center. Now I have one pair of forte II's for surrounds and the quartets for rears. I'm keeping all of them, someday I may let my son have them when and if he ever moves out and gets an apartment. I replaced the crossovers with popbumpers K-tacks in 5 of them and the quartets. They made a hell of a HT system. Never tried a/b against the belles but they will be back in service while I refinish my belles.

[oldtimer]

As an owner of 3 pairs, I can also say there is truly no good reason not to hang on to them and pass them on to your heirs.

[rhing]

That's my plan too. I just removed all the grills. drivers and crossovers and sent my cabinets to a professional woodworker for refinishing. In the meantime, I replaced the binding posts with much better Pomona Electronics 3770 Gold-plated Copper binding posts, and I'm getting some new internal wire sets from Bob Crites. With Bob's crossover upgrades, my Forte IIs sound great.

[John Chi-town]

Attached below is an article on the limited 1996 re-release of the original Forte II, does anyone have any experience with the "2nd" generation of Forte II? Considering a second pair on used market and am wondering if they are the same as the original? Thanks! John

-
Greg Smith

---

October 1996

If you've been reading my Entry Level columns, you've noticed
that I frequently talk about my speakers. Klipsch introduced a collection
of designs they called the Heritage series back around the beginning of
the decade, and the jewel in that collection is a model called the Forte
II. Being from Klipsch, they use horns, but these speakers are the best
designed horns I've ever heard for any reasonable sum of money. They've
been out of production for many years now, so I haven't been pushing them
too much. Imagine my surprise when I found out that Klipsch is making them
again, and they're even cheaper than before! With the current craze, centered
around things like single ended tubes, toward higher efficiency speakers,
it's particularly appropriate to talk now about what these speakers do
well and to mention some of the things I've learned in five years of system
matching.

The Return of the Forte II

Klipsch Forte II

$1000/pair. Horn Tweeter, Tractrix Horn Midrange, 12 inch woofer,
15 inch passive radiator, crossover points at 650hz and 7Khz. 99dB sensitivity,
8 ohm nominal impedance, 4 ohm minimum. -3dB@32hz, 20Khz.

There are speakers that you just buy, plug in, and play. Sure, maybe
you move them around a bit, but most speakers aren’t all that difficult
to get working well. These are not speakers like that. The Forte II is
something you need to plan your whole system and room around to make it
perform well. You don’t just pick a random set of components, position
them like regular cone speakers, and expect them to perform. The result
will probably sound horrible. I will fully agree that most horn design
sound horrible in any case, including many from Klipsch. The Forte II can
be made to sound very good, but it takes quite a bit of sweat. Just because
you’ve heard horns before and thought they sounded bad, don’t dismiss these.

Here’s one thing I’ve noticed about horn speakers. Because the efficiency
is so high, it’s much easier to use the drivers out of their normal operating
range without causing over-excursion problems. This is why you’ll find
so many two-way horn designs. You can push most tweeter horns so that they
work down to around 2Khz, and keep the frequency response fairly flat.
Unfortunately, this results in a less than pleasant off-axis response at
higher frequencies. The horn problem most people refer to as "honking"
is most obvious with two-way horn designs, and I’ve never liked them because
of it.

When the engineers at Klipsch were designing the Tractrix midrange horn
that is used in the Forte II, they found it could be used up to 20Khz if
they played with the EQ on the driver. They didn’t do so; instead, there
is a separate tweeter horn for the very high frequencies. Limiting the
bandwidth used for the midrange horn lets it cover a horizontal area of
60 degrees smoothly while controlling the vertical coverage for better
integration with the other drivers (see Tractrix Horns in the March
1991 issue of Audio for information how the Forte II was created). The
fact that the midrange is so well designed is the primary reason this particular
model sounds so much better than the other speakers I’ve heard from Klipsch,
or from any other horn manufacturer for that matter.

The midrange is really what makes this speaker sound great. There’s
a totally effortless feeling to vocals that comes from a driver operating
nowhere near its limits in either frequency response or output level. And
the foundation that midrange is working on is very solid. The bass is tight
down to 30hz if the associated electronics keep up. You’ll feel little
need for a subwoofer.

And if you want peak output, you’ve got it. I’ve measured my speakers
clearing 115dB in my room before (with my ears covered, thank you). They
sounded about as distorted as your average cone speakers do with 10dB less
output (which is what you’d expect with a typical 10dB sensitivity difference).
While I certainly don’t recommend listening to anything that loud, it’s
nice to know you can use your speakers for low-grade sound reinforcement
without constantly fearing damage. The low distortion makes the volume
level deceptive; I can listen to these speakers at a considerably higher
volume than more traditional designs without ear fatigue. Distortion makes
speaker sound loud regardless of the volume, and it’s surprising how much
quieter the same volume levels sounds without it present (this is a central
concept to Paul Klipsch’s philosophy for the company).

Amplifier matching

With that 99dB sensitivity, you’d think you could use any old amplifier
and have plenty of power. This is not at all the case. In order to match
the output levels of the drivers (those horns are even louder than that
without some padding), Klipsch uses some very unique matching techniques
using things like a type of transformer. (see A Visit to the Klipsch
Kingdom in the 4/89 issue of Speaker Builder for comments from Paul
Klipsch on their autoformer design). Transformers are obviously inductive,
as they are made out of inductors. What this means is that while the amplifier
used doesn’t need to have a very high power output in typical terms, it
does need to be able to deal with the very difficult load that inductors
present. Using a cheap receiver to drive these speakers just because you
don’t need much power is the wrong approach. What you need is a high- current
amplifier that can deal with difficult loads without introducing problems.

One of the problems you’ll constantly fight with these speakers is that
any components that might sound a bit harsh with other speakers will have
that harshness revealed in all its glory. Use a typical cheap CD player
and a pair of these speakers will drive you from the room. The amplifier
matching in particular can introduce an incredibly rough sound. Back when
I was using an Adcom GFA-555 with these speakers, an amplifier generally
recognized as being a bit too aggressive in its treble, I had to deal with
a level of sibilance that was almost unbearable. The Proton D1200 amplifier
I current use is a very good match, but you can’t buy them anymore. Essentially,
I recommend trying amplifiers from manufacturers known for producing laid-back
components. I’ve had excellent luck building a system around these speakers
with components from Rotel, and I have no reason to expect that their power
amplifiers would be a bad match for these speakers (and they even make
inexpensive, low-power models that still have excellent current driving
ability). The tube amps I’ve tried all sound terrific with these speakers.
A 35w/ch Dynaco ST-70 is plenty of power to drive a pair to ear-bleeding
levels with no problems.

Placement

The other thing that really can bite you and leave a bad impression
of these speakers is how you place them. All of Klipsch’s speakers are
designed to be placed closer to the corners than typical designs. I like
these best sitting about 1-2’ from the left, right, and rear walls. Pull
them far out into the room and they don’t sound as good. Another things
to watch out for is toe-in. Most people angle their speakers so that the
drivers are directly facing them. Bad idea here--you want these facing
directly forward, with no toe-in rotation toward the center. When pointed
right at you, the harshness that’s always waiting around for the unwary
comes right out. The off-axis sound is much smoother and more pleasant
to listen to. The manual that comes with the speaker has very generic recommendations
that recommend toe-in for all their speakers; ignore all of their suggestions.
They may very well be true with other models, but with the Forte II they
are just plain wrong (current production might have a revised manual that
gives better advice).

Don’t wait too long...

Two warnings. First, if you’re interested, start moving now. I’m told
that the rerelease of these speakers is a temporary thing, and that they
are going to disappear again in some indeterminate period of time. Second,
I haven’t actually had a chance to try out a sample from the current product
run. I don’t see any design changes, and they seemed to sound about the
same during a brief listen at the local dealer, but I’m not 100% certain
these are exactly the same speakers I’m used to. Even if I had a pair,
I couldn’t tell you for sure for a while--it took me six months to get
my old pair broken in properly (you really have to move that woofer around
to stretch the cone and radiator out to get the bass going as deep as it
should). The bass does take a while before it sounds exactly right, and
the volume level required to break these in right is enough to get your
average dealer evicted if they tried it in the store.

As far as I’m concerned, the Forte II is a terrific design competitive
with any speaker in the $1000 price class is every category. And they are
possibly the best available in terms of deep bass output, sensitivity,
and maximum output for that much cash. If you give them a fair audition,
following the suggestions I gave for matching components and room placement,
you may just find that inexpensive horn speakers can sound better than
you thought possible.

.....GS

---

[Groomlakearea51]

Greg's a snob...

"inexpensive horn speakers"

... and he makes no bones about bashing some of Klipsch designs. His comments about "breaking in" is horse-crap. Ask Klipsch engineer Roy Delgado. All Mr. Smth wants is that "smeared" sound from the bass which is a characteristic of cone material getiing, shall we say, less than rigid. He also apparently has a problem with horn loaded speakers in general, and while emphasizing a characteristic that is indicative of the source material and how it was amped to the speakers, NOT the speaker design, he does, in substance, basically say that unless you have associated high end components, don't buy them. Crap. Just a backhanded attempt to bash the Forte's, nothing more, nothing less.

I've had 3 pairs of the Forte's (and a couple pairs of Chorus along the way). Outstanding speakers, and to be honest are a hell of alot more forgiving in terms of placement than many, if not most other non-Klipsch speakers. Only reason I sold all of the "Classic" series is that I did not need them, and wanted to concentrate on the Heritage series. Second only to the Heresy, the Forte is probably the easiest to use in just about any application, and is well worth the money as at least a start until one goes for the K'horns, etc.

Just my opinion on the "review" and the Forte's in general.

[John Chi-town]

I agree with your assesment 100% as it relates to Greg's article. I own a pair of 1992 Forte II's that I will pass on to my son prior to ever parting with.

Originally powered by an Adcom GFA 555II, and now by an Adcom GFA 5802. I was and have always been happy with the sound. I would not consider Adcom components at the "High End" today or ever, but a great "Bang for theBuck" in my humble opinion.

The reason I posted the article is that I am in search of a used pair in the marketplace and was wondering if the 1996-1997? re-issues are exactly the same as the original run of Forte II????

Thanks!

John

[Groomlakearea51]

If you can snag a pair or the re-issues for a reasonable sum, they would be worth it as the drivers, crossovers are not "old", with all that entails (cap degradation, diaphragm brittleness, cone rigidity loss, etc.)

[wuboy]

If my relatives weren't such a bunch of bose eating morons, I'd leave them to them, not like I'm going any where tomorrow, so between the Forte II's and the Quartets I am in hog heaven, the Quartets are a great center channel. Since Klipsch no longer makes woofers for the Quartet, I got the theile-small parameters from Klipsch Parts, and found the matches. Go figure, my local DYI electronics store had what I needed.

My Forte II's were made in 1995, so they are relatively young, too bad my deaf younger relatives can't hear it....bose eating morons, the whole bunch, maybe mine will go to the local VA Post, or my Coast Guard Aux post. But I really have to be dead first, otherwise, no way...

[fwphoto]

If my relatives weren't such a bunch of bose eating morons, I'd leave them to them, not like I'm going any where tomorrow, ...

You are too funny wuboy!

Mine are '92s. The Klipsch product page says they were produced between '89 & '96. It doesn't say anything about about a "re-issue" of the Forte II or any mention of differences among the years of production.

So, when did they suspend production of the original run & when did they bring them back?

Frank W.

[wuboy]

This is a question I will leave for the erudite among us, because I don't think there is a wiki page on it, although the Forte II does make the Klipsch wiki page.

The Forte II's great strength was sound, it's weakness, expensive to make, expensive enough to cannibalize the Cornwall market by pushing it's price point to a higher level. Not like I think companies are strictly motivated by profit, but this is a company that actually brings proof of concept to production, which is pretty cool.

[carbon summit]

This is a question I will leave for the erudite among us, because I don't think there is a wiki page on it, although the Forte II does make the Klipsch wiki page. The Forte II's great strength was sound, it's weakness, expensive to make, expensive enough to cannibalize the Cornwall market by pushing it's price point to a higher level. Not like I think companies are strictly motivated by profit, but this is a company that actually brings proof of concept to production, which is pretty cool.

er⋅u⋅dite  /'?ry??da?t, '?r?-/ [er-yoo-dahyt, er-oo-]

–adjective

characterized by great knowledge; learned or scholarly: an erudite professor; an erudite commentary.

FYI for those of us without wuboy's vocabulary! []

[carbon summit]

If my relatives weren't such a bunch of bose eating morons, I'd leave them to them, not like I'm going any where tomorrow, ...

You are too funny wuboy!

Mine are '92s. The Klipsch product page says they were produced between '89 & '96. It doesn't say anything about about a "re-issue" of the Forte II or any mention of differences among the years of production.

So, when did they suspend production of the original run & when did they bring them back?

Frank W.

I found that article on the internet a while back so I contacted Klipsch tech support. The main thing I was curious about was the swing in ohms that the article talks about trying to justify to myself that I needed an amp since my Yamaha 663 doesn't really put out the power Yamaha says. I also asked in that email about what the article said about the reintroduction of the Forte IIs.

Here is part of the email that addressed the question about when the Forte II was made:

Thanks for the complete article, I think I have it somewhere, so I will cut paste in a word doc.

The forte II, notice lower case first letter as that is the correct way to spell it, was built between 1989 to 1996, no time lag between.

Steve Phillips

Senior Tech Support

Klipsch, Mondial Designs, Jamo, API

I notice on the Klipsch website it is spelled with a capital F so I'm not sure if it is that way because whoever put the website together capitalized it. The original boxes that came with my Forte IIs have it as forte so he is probably right. I still capitalize it, must be the only thing that I learned in grade school english class that stuck with me, capitalize proper nouns.

[fwphoto]

Thanks for the info!

What a great resource this forum is!

I think I'll start using the lower case, just to be different. ;-)

Frank W.

[wuzzzer]

I think I'll start using the lower case, just to be different. ;-)

Frank W.

Too late. []

[astralography]

I just bought a pair of Forte ll's and really am shell shocked at how wonderful these speakers sound. I am a huge fan of horn music,

jazz, funk, and so on.. rock with horns.. and I think vocals sound best through horn driven speakers. Having the two horns to me added the dynamic range that was not in other single horned speakers I have owned. What really blew me away was the bass response.. not just the volume of bass, but the CLARITY of the low end. I am a bass player, and as an electric bass player, any great bassist worth his salt KNOWS that you need a 15 inch woofer in your cabinet. I don't care what the modern tech guys argue about smaller coned long throw subs... they just ain't the same my friends. A 15 inch speaker is going to move air in a different way.. and if you want proper sound replication... you need a 15 inch woofer to properly re create what the original microphone diaphram picked up from bass guitar coming out of a a fender bassman cabinet or similar set up. I would argue that acoustic bass also sounds much more REAL coming out of a 15.

I don't like powered 15 inch woofers. The 15 inch passive radiator is the way to go. It was a great invention and should be in any serious audiophile's speaker stack. Pushing the speakers back into the corners is the right way to do it. This way you really get the walls working for you. I have owned Bella's and heard Cornwalls, and as far as detail .. the Forte ll leaves those others in the dust. These are incredibly musical speakers that should be able to contend with just about anything out there from any era.

The Forte ll? Why would you have anything else?