Music vs Gear

[winchester21]

From the minute I get home my gear is on. I am aswitching speaker wires back and forth form my tube to my HT set up on the k horns. I was really into gear back in the 70s. In the 80s I got into other stuff- cars- guns - trips - kids-hunting dogs- ect- ect. I sold my Altecs and My ESS Heils and bought a Sony receiver and some small JBLs. but the whole time i kept going into stereo shops and saying -some day i will build my ultimate system around k horns which i have always lusted after but could never see spending the cash. So the time is now- I can't believe i wasted this much time getting what I have now. I think this hobby/sickness will be with me for a while.

[soundbound]

I enjoy music and the artist musical talents. I can enjoy it on a table radio, but when I listen to some really good music that's recorded well on my main system, it's much more than just listening to some music. It's an experience that I'm blessed to have often. I have a large main system and music collection. A very high percentage of my collection is good recordings. Just grab one and you're in for a treat. I have the same amount of money in my system as I do my collection.

[Daddy Dee]

Gear or music is a great question.

It is all too easy to let the quest for gear get in the way of enjoying the music.

Learning that "different" is not the same as "better" is important. For example, to my ears, the vintage gear of Scott, Eico and Fisher each have a different reference sound. Which one is better?

[winchester21]

My first setup back in 71 or 72 was a Sansui SS integrated amp- Dual TT- Shure cart-Altec speakers. I remember the Scott and Fisher stuff well. Sansui was the latest- greatest- must have stuff among my friends back then. Tube stuff was old outdated trash(yes we were smoking something).I would love to hear one of the older tube units along side my new 300Bs. My old Mac 2105 definitely has a different and IMO better sound than my modern SS HT outboards.The Mac guru here in town said that Mac attempted to design their earlier SS amps to emulate a tubelike sound.

I look at this more as gear = music.

[Mallette]

It's pretty well known around here that I am music centric. OTOH, I have held a Stadivarius. Of course, it was dead silent. Nonetheless, I could feel an electric sense of all the music that had poured forth over the centuries from that piece of wood and varnish.

Perhaps a fine old tube amp, speakers, or similiar is not quite Strad, but I get a warm fuzzy watching my old Dynaco's tubes glow even when no music is in the air.

The fact of the matter is that you can't have music without gear, and gear without music is just a door stop or wall hanging.

Dave

[fenderbender]

My first setup back in 71 or 72 was a Sansui SS integrated amp- Dual TT- Shure cart-Altec speakers. I remember the Scott and Fisher stuff well. Sansui was the latest- greatest- must have stuff among my friends back then. Tube stuff was old outdated trash(yes we were smoking something).I would love to hear one of the older tube units along side my new 300Bs. My old Mac 2105 definitely has a different and IMO better sound than my modern SS HT outboards.The Mac guru here in town said that Mac attempted to design their earlier SS amps to emulate a tubelike sound.

I look at this more as  gear = music.

I'll reserve this for vintage Tube gear, as per my experience vintage SS that works well...Plain ole works well, end of story....

IMO the vintage tube gear that I have owned had a wonderful nostalgia to it....looked cool as hell, and really did sound very nice, BUTTTTT.......I think that modern design has really taken tube gear to a whole new level.....IMO the new MC275 mkV walks all over an original sonically (there are those who prefer an original but this is my opinion only) and yes I have owned an original......I also just rebuilt a rare flagship sansui au-111 that is a beast and sounds wonderful, but put next to a modern design has a different sound altogether

What I have found , and I am no expert at all, is that vintage tubes have a more colored, less transparent, less reveling presence....in all less accurate, where "good" modern tube design takes the benefits of SS and the upside of tubes and rolls them together in a very accurate package

I happen to prefer the "accurate" and am in no way implying that one is better than the other....it's all personal taste....(whats better a ribeye or a NY strip??? both yummy!!!)

and just to stir the pot....there are some modern SS designs that will trounce tubes in certain areas.......take your pick, lots of horses running at this track!!! [][][][]

[Mallette]

>....there are some modern SS designs that will trounce tubes in certain areas......

I'd love to hear that. I've heard them from a 100 dollars to 50k, and they all sounded like transistors. Very accurate mind you, but all alike with the exception of a few (like Carver) intentionally built to sound different. Not more accurate, just different.

I am tempted to say (so why not, and see what cat fight develops [6]) that every amp will sound just like the last thing it went through...just like a photograph will look like the weakest piece of glass through which the light passed. Can anyone point out a difference in one quality power transistor over another that would change the sound?

I'm just wandering here, and really not trying to start something...but I probably did.

Hey, that's what we come for, isn't it?

Dave

[Don Richard]

I've heard a $50k system with a selection of only cds numbering less than 300, of which only 20 sounded good, 5 great, and none of them particularly musical. Not for me.

Well, obviously a set of Nordost cables would have solved all of that[6]

[SWL]

I spent years over analyzing my gear. It got to the point that I was doing it so much that I wasn't enjoying the music. So I turned it off for about 6 months.

The minute I step into the house I have tunes playing from at least one of my three systems.

Tried to go cold turkey once. I made it 90 minutes. After the microwave, fridge and the doorbell were tweaked just right I said the heck with it and let it rip.

[Hifi jim]

I've heard a $50k system with a selection of only cds numbering less than 300, of which only 20 sounded good, 5 great, and none of them particularly musical. Not for me.

 

Well, obviously a set of Nordost cables would have solved all of that

LOL, very good Don. It is all about synergy though.

[Mallette]

Hifi jim:

I've heard a $50k system with a selection of only cds numbering less than 300, of which only 20 sounded good, 5 great, and none of them particularly musical. Not for me.

Can't help but wonder what genre and vintage those CD's were. Also, the cost of the system certainly doesn't guarantee anything except that a lot of money was spent.

I've found the quality of mastering of CD's has improved markedly in the past 5 years. Rick Rigler (TubesnHorns) played 5 CD's at my place last Saturday. 4 of them were truly outstanding and better than all but the finest LP's. Rick's good taste had a lot to do with the quality of the artists (they were varied), but the improved state of CD production had a lot to do with the very fine sound I heard. A number of these were multi mike and mixed things, which ofter puts my ears off, but these were very fine indeed.

If these 300 CD's were mostly from the 80's and 90's I would not be surprised at your response. If many were very recent and from genre which have a better engineering culture, like jazz and classical, I'd suspect that 50k would have been better spent on a Hummer with a good sound system. Bear in mind my history with CD's in a nutshell:

1985: Wow! Perfect sound forever!

1995: Ouch...either engineering has gone to hell or this technology is spawn of the devil.

2001: OK, it's the engineers.

2009: Dang. I think they are finally learning that when the medium reveals everything, you'd best dress well.

Dave

[skonopa]

For me, I am definitely all about the music! However, as was already mentioned, you really need the gear to enjoy the music, but at the same time, the gear is pretty useless and just room decoration without the music. I guess, to me, the gear is just a means to an end in wanting to garner maximum enjoyment out of my music. Thus, I don't mind spending a little money in getting some really nice gear to make the music listening experience all that much more visceral, emotional, lively, or whatever other adjective you could come up with. I guess I don't spend a ton of time and money in trying to figure out just "exactly" what tubes to get, what cartridge for the TT to get, what cables do what, etc. After having listened to some really nice setups from some of the folks around here, I am still amazed at what my trusty old Denon/B&K/Klipsch RF-7 setup is capable of doing and just love how it sounds with what I typically listen to. Yes, I listen to mostly metal, but it is not by any stretch of the imagination, the typical "screaming the lungs out and trashing the hell out of guitar and beating the living $#!+ out the drums" type that you may have heard on the radio. What I listen to is very much jazz and/or classically influeanced. Not only that, but I'd be willing to put some of these musicions up against many of the musicions in some of these other genres (and in fact some do play in jazz trio's, etc, such as Alex Skolnic Trio as an example). Not only that these guys very much care about recording quality, thus having the nice high-end system really does pay off in what I listen to. Some of you have heard some of the stuff that I listen to at the pilgrimages. Now, I am attempting to setup a nice little two-channel, with vinyl playback capabilities. What I got does sound quite nice, but I have to admit that I do want to make some improvements there - and that means attempting to aquire and check out some gear, such as a pair of Cornwalls, a better TT, perhaps even dabble in tube amplification (although I really do like this Cambridge Audio Azure 640A integrated amp).

[fenderbender]

>....there are some modern SS designs that will trounce tubes in certain areas......

I'd love to hear that.  I've heard them from a 100 dollars to 50k, and they all sounded like transistors.  Very accurate mind you, but all alike with the exception of a few (like Carver) intentionally built to sound different.  Not more accurate, just different.

I am tempted to say (so why not, and see what cat fight develops ) that every amp will sound just like the last thing it went through...just like a photograph will look like the weakest piece of glass through which the light passed.  Can anyone point out a difference in one quality power transistor over another that would change the sound?  

I'm just wandering here, and really not trying to start something...but I probably did.

Hey, that's what we come for, isn't it?

Dave

Put em up....[][][][]

No fight left in me after my trainer gets done with me 6 days a week.......It's a very subjective and emotional matter and who can say what anyone hears with their ears is what anyone else hears??? Even if we could tweek our ears to all be set to the same standard, we have so much emotional garbage floating around in our brains that it skews everything.......look how many folks drank the marketing Kool-ade in the 70's and dumped their tube gear for SS. I'm as guilty as anyone......and really need to check the emotions at the door when go for a serious listen.....

As far as SS goes .....it can do certain things very well, I was very impressed with some Nelson Pass and Classe designs that I auditioned , but for the whole package, tubes do it for me......I like warm (thermaly) glowing amps[]

when it comes to transistors, IMO if they are to spec and do what they are supposed to do within allowed tolerances, I can't see why anyone brand would leed an amp to sound different than another?

[DrWho]

Even "identical" transistors are different enough from each other to require finding matched pairs. The selection of any active component is very critical to the performance and thus sonic signature...though the topology has a large influence too, not to mention the topology usually determines what kind of performance and tolerances are required. Anways, you can't just go swapping "similar" parts and expect things to sound the same...

[BuyOtherSoundEquipment]

What's wrong with listening to and appreciating both music and gear?

I like the Doc's sentiments here... I don't see how it's fair to validate the musician's art more than the engineer's art... or vice versa.

[Mallette]

Even "identical" transistors are different enough from each other to require finding matched pairs. The selection of any active component is very critical to the performance and thus sonic signature...though the topology has a large influence too, not to mention the topology usually determines what kind of performance and tolerances are required. Anways, you can't just go swapping "similar" parts and expect things to sound the same...

Mike, you are the acknowledged expert here and I am just a questioner.

Question: Assuming you are working well within the linear portion of a power transistor and that power transistor is made to spec, what can happen between the gate and drain to effect an audible difference in what appeared at the gate and what appears at the drain?

Let's assume you can use open backed headphones and match the levels between the gate level and the drain output to speakers. The speakers are set to minimize time delay and the room is treated to minimize reflections or mimic the headset. That would be a sticky wicket, I agree, but probably possible. Then you play back binaural material and blind A/B the subject.

There may be, and probably is, a hole in my setup, but try to go with it as intended. I am no engineer...

Predictions on result?

Dave

[Hifi jim]

Hifi jim:

I've heard a $50k system with a selection of only cds numbering less than 300, of which only 20 sounded good, 5 great, and none of them particularly musical. Not for me.

Can't help but wonder what genre and vintage those CD's were.  Also, the cost of the system certainly doesn't guarantee anything except that a lot of money was spent.

I've found the quality of mastering of CD's has improved markedly in the past 5 years.  Rick Rigler (TubesnHorns) played 5 CD's at my place last Saturday.  4 of them were truly outstanding and better than all but the finest LP's.  Rick's good taste had a lot to do with the quality of the artists (they were varied), but the improved state of CD production had a lot to do with the very fine sound I heard.  A number of these were multi mike and mixed things, which ofter puts my ears off, but these were very fine indeed. 

If these 300 CD's were mostly from the 80's and 90's I would not be surprised at your response.  If many were very recent and from genre which have a better engineering culture, like jazz and classical, I'd suspect that 50k would have been better spent on a Hummer with a good sound system.  Bear in mind my history with CD's in a nutshell:

1985:  Wow! Perfect sound forever! 

1995:  Ouch...either engineering has gone to hell or this technology is spawn of the devil.

2001:  OK, it's the engineers.

2009:  Dang.  I think they are finally learning that when the medium reveals everything, you'd best dress well. 

Dave

Dave, the collection of cds this fellow had were a pretty broad range, but selecting titles that I was familiar with, I was surprised how awful they sounded on what appeared to be a very impressive system. After listening to many cds, it was my opinion that the system was overly analytical for my taste. Now, it's not my intention to pick apart equipment by name here, but I will say they were not Klipsch speakers and they were not tube amps [] This thread is about something entirely different than that. It was my position in my previous post, that the synergy of the system and the room are important for me to enjoy the music. Music or gear? As many have stated here, it's a combination of both that so many of us enjoy. It's a bit like cars. Car lovers love cars, but they also enjoy driving and the connection with the car. What would one be without the other? I could say that my Toyota gets me where I need to go, like a stereo plays music. But does a Ferrari offer a better driving experience than a Hyundai? Does a McIntosh tube amp sound better than a cheap SS receiver? I think I know the answer to both questions, I just need enough money to prove it to myself. []

[Mallette]

Okies, Jim. Thoughtful response and illuminating a bit more of your experience. It would have been interesting to hear fine R2R, cassette, TT, or other source to compare. I suspect your reaction would have been the same.

Bearing in mind that much of the cost was built up by trades and sales over the years, I'll make a stab at costing out the part of my system required to play CD's. I've had enough "golden" and educated (like George Mims) ears listen to my system to be able to say that it is both accurate and listenable from any quality source. For CD:

Klipschorns - 1500.00

Rebuilt ST-80 500.00

Super PAS4i preamp 500.00 (I can't quite recall...been a while)

OPPO 180.00

I am just about as satisfied (as are others) with my Panny digital amp - 123.00. Now, to be entirely honest I run the OPPO through the Super PAS whether I am using the ST-80 or the Panny for amplification, just because I can. In any event, I find the Panny amplification accurate like SS and less fatigueing like tubes. So if you don't have a bias I could reduce the above to less than 2k for the whole CD chain using the Panny for pre and amp, or less than 3k if you insist on tubes all the way. Either way you still have enough of 50k left for a Lexus or half a college education at UT.

None of the above required any real luck, just diligent Ebay and studying of gear cost/performance from folks I trust.

So how much do you have in your system for this same basic chain and what do you think you need to spend to get it to where you think it needs to be?

Of course, you might listen to my system and go "Yuk." Can't know the answer to that unless you want to come visit.

Dave

[Hifi jim]

Hey Dave, I'm not suggesting that the cd playback was to fault, but rather the speakers, amplifier and room. Thanks to your love for Oppo products along with the many other members here, I purchased one again late last year and have been using that for cd playback. Because of the economy and my employment this past year, I've been forced to a smaller place and have sold much of my two channel gear (not all, some is in storage), while consolidating and updating my HT. I currently use the Oppo DV-980h into a Yamaha RX-V1800 feeding kg4s. I'm not sure the kgs have ever sounded better and I'm more than impressed with the value of the system. My original intention was to save for RF-63s as I have the RC-64 and RB-51s already. However, after doing lots of research here I feel I'd like to go straight into a Heritage HT and 2 ch combination rig since I only have one room suitable for listening. I've been eyeing up some Fortes which I think will fit my needs perfectly (sure I'd LOVE to have some Klipschorns, but I have no money or room for them at the moment). The Fortes along the Yammy, Oppo and maybe my old Scott 222 should give me the HT and 2 ch I seek for a reasonable amount of money. I might even hook up my old Nak tape deck after reading about your great results and remembering what a fine sound I enjoyed from it []. I agree that money well spent can give just about anyone caviar performance at beer budget prices. My surprise, and original post was more a reaction to this fellows tremendous investment in hardware, and relatively small investment in software. Add to that the sound which I found objectionable, and I like you was scratching my head trying to figure where $50k had gone. Now, that's not to say that $50k spent on different audio equipment wouldn't sound incredible and better than anything I have ever heard, but that was far from the case here. I'm sure your system, as you've outlined, sounds terrific. I wish I was a bit closer so I could have a listen, but I don't really need any bad ideas at the moment (K-horns)! Digital amplification is another avenue I'd like to investigate, and your praise matches what others have said. I too, find eBay, craigslist and Audiogon great sources for gear on the cheap, but no matter if gear is bought new or used I feel some system matching must still take place to find that magic that we all seek. It sounds like you've been fortunate in that dept, and have no need for further experimentation. I still want a pair of 3 way Klipsch, along with a nice amp (something I already own perhaps), and using the Oppo as the source, I'm sure I will be very happy with a little $$ left for music!

[Mallette]

What a satisfying exchange, Jim. I totally missed your original point which appeared to suggest "There ain't no good CD's except coasters." If you know me, I don't have any horse in the format race, but strongly believe that the only thing that counts is engineering.

Frankly, I DO believe there are some very expensive systems that can make good engineering sound bad. I have heard same. If it sounds good on a boom box or car system, it will sound great on a fine system.

Dave