Ray Garrison Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 Okay, we've all been Bose Bashing for some time now. I'd like to post a contrary viewpoint. 1) Bose has an ENORMOUS budget available for R&D, market research, advertising and payroll 2) Bose hires and retains some of the brightest engineers in the world 3) Bose is the largest speaker manufacturer in the world 4) Lots of people who buy Bose speakers are quite happy with the sound they paid for, which implies 5) Bose is very, very good at identifying a lowest common denominator of expectations, engineering systems to meet those expectations that are packaged in such a way to appeal to non-audio-fanatical purchasers and their significant others, and selling a sh*tload of product that meets the expectations of their intended market Critisizing Bose for being Bose and selling the little cube speakers that sound like, uh, little cube speakers is analogous to critisizing Peter Vella for selling wine that comes in cardboard boxes with plastic inner liners that tastes like Koolaide. Peter Vella sells more wine than Chateau Mouton Rothschild. A lot of people are very happy with Peter Vella wine. A wine connisuer might be quite offended were you to offer a box wine with dinner, but there's a lot more Koolaide lovers than there are wine connisures. There are a LOT more people who would be happy with Bose cubes in the living room than Klipschorns. They are not into sound, or music, or audio, or whatever you want to call it, the way we are. Okay, fine. Don't buy Bose. If you have friends who really ARE into music, help educate them. But don't get all hot and bothered when a company like Bose identifies a market, builds products that appeal to the market, pays a ton of money to advertise their products, and becomes very successful. Klipsch is well on the way to becoming a dominant vendor in this industry. Wanna bet that, at some point, they bring out a product line that appeals to the same people that would be happy with the Bose Lifestyle system? I do still have a problem with copywriting the idea of using a decimal point, though... ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youngklip Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 I know what you are saying. I have a problem when they have their prices set to high for what you get. Plus the people at bose try to make everyone else look like crap. Because they think that they spend a lot of money in R&D and they should be on top. Then again the people who are trailer trash and other poor people might look into buying their products. If thats the market boses is going for.. They just need to lower prices and stop talking smack about other companys who care about sound quality. ------------------ Bose Suck..Period Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 While "Bose Bashing" brings a smile or two... Ray is right on, of course. Bose sucks? Sure, Bose sucks money out of consumer's pockets and makes them smile... and that is the goal of most business enterprises when you get down to the bottom line. There was a time, believe it or not, when Bose made some fairly decent, good sized consumer grade loudspeaker towers. Then they figured how to get a similar sound out of bookshelf speakers... and then they rushed head-long into "cubism" as an American way of aural life! Reference Loudspeakers appear to be more what the public wants... now... and what the public will likely buy faster than K-horns at a half price sale! Bose is the "Slick Willy" of audio and the industry leader in pound-for-pound profitability... and all this Indy & Hope expansion suggests that Klipsch is weighing in to be a worthy challenger in the loudspeaker market. This should be an interesting few years of years of Bose "decimal point" and Klipsch accurate Counterpoint. I just hope Klipsch can make enough money to indulge its thousands of Heritage fans with readily available product. HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 I listened to a pair of 701 II's today. While your point is well taken Ray, I'm sorry, but IMHO these speaker's sucked. I tried to be open about it, but they just sounded bad at moderate volumes. Raspy, distorted and just not up to snuff, I'm mean c'mon, paper cone tweeters??!! This is my opinion, others may like them. But there is better for the same price. If the consumer likes them, then we are all happy. It's just nice to know that the internet is full of info about audio, and if anyone willing to desire better can find out through this resource, to discover things beyond cheap magazine advertisments and the usual hype and sketchy specs. Some people are happy with a Boombox at home, nothin' wrong with that. Some folks listen to nothing but the Television, nothin' wrong with that either. I will refrain from Bose slamming from now on, Mr. Garrison. I will conduct on the boards in a responsible manner. The topic's gettin' old anyway. Just one little more stab, BOSE LICKS! I'm done. THANX! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 Your comments, my responses- 1) Bose has an ENORMOUS budget available for R&D, market research, advertising and payroll. Where's the data? 2) Bose hires and retains some of the brightest engineers in the world huh? Again, where's your data Ray? I have old grad school buddies that "used" to work for Bose, nothing extraordinary. Engineers cycle thru Bose at a rate consistent with similar light manufacturing facilities in the greater Boston area. And, the word on the street is that Boston Acoustics in Lynnfield is the place to work, better salaries and benefits AND no auto industry ties. In the Boston area, salaries are the highest in aerospace/defense. 3) Bose is the largest speaker manufacturer in the world Wrong, it's Emminence. 4) Lots of people who buy Bose speakers are quite happy with the sound they paid for, which implies Again, unsubstantiated statements. Do you have any data to support these claims? If so then pls post. 5) Bose is very, very good at identifying a lowest common denominator of expectations, engineering systems to meet those expectations that are packaged in such a way to appeal to non-audio-fanatical purchasers and their significant others, and selling a sh*tload of product that meets the expectations of their intended market Where is this going? Bose is a medium sized manufacturer of consumer electronics. Seems like a complete waste of bandwidth to discuss their exisitence yet it comes up ONLY here on the LLC's site. No other BBS or NG discusses it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 my cubes are bigger than your cubes ------------------ deanG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 That's right Dean, If one's cubes weigh less than 90 pounds, it's not a speaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seb Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 John, do I need data to say that Ferrari is considered by people like one of the most desirable car brands on Earth? Of course not, it's just common sense/knowledge. Nothing irritates me like people who come to a discussion and cry out "data, data!!!" whenever someone makes a claim. This is not a scientific statistical journal, this is a public bulletin board, and I don't think anyone needs to justify himself saying that Bose has an enormous budget for R&D, marketing, etc... And I'm pretty sure it's common sense to say that a lot of people who bought Bose are happy with their purchase, or else Bose wouldn't make so much money, as people would return the products if unsatisfied, and there would be no repeat buying, which is impossible for such a successful company. And as far as your claim of Bose discussions only here, well that's completely totally and very obviously FALSE. I've been on several bulletin boards on the Net, and in almost all cases I've seen some kind of Bose discussion, or at least allusions to Bose "suckiness". I don't know where you've been, but I'd really like to see a BB on the net where no "Bose sucks" discussion has ever happened. So please, if you think some of the points presented on discussions like these are wrong, then post some info to the contrary. It's a BB, not a scientific journal, there is no strict burden of proof on anyone, but if you can, like you did for the claim that Bose was the largest speaker manufacturer in the world, or when you refuted the fact that Bose employed the brightest engineers. That adds much more to the discussion than blindly shouting "data!!"... ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundog Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 I know some very nice people who are quite bright and well educated that like the Bose cubes very much. Some get the white ones and paint them to match their walls. They virtually disappear. They can produce a lot of sound for their size and many find them quite pleasent. Not everyone is willing to do the research, spend the money and get tangled in wires nor do they have spouses that think a lot of big speakers and electronic equiptment are beautiful. Some people value ease of operation above everything else. They like to listen to soft music and watch some movies with some dramatic effects. They really don't want the London Symphony in their living room at concert hall levels nor do they want to move their house on it's foundation. Some people actually think we're the ones that "are nuts". ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 Well, for one thing, it's nice to see passion in discussions and differing viewpoints. Let us just remember that opinions are like *ssholes ... everybody has one. I for one think Ray is on to something and glad he had the cajones to stand tall in a stiff Bose breeze and say it. I think we all respect him for it, even if our personal opinions differ. As far as the "in God we trust, all others bring data ..." argument, Bose, as a privately-held company, is very tight with its sales and profitability data. I've been selling to Bose for thirteen years and have met Dr. Bose quite a few times (when he wasn't at his vacation home in Hawaii) ... He's actually a very nice guy and still (I think) is teaching at MIT. I for one have no problems with his company making him probably a quarter of a billion dollars before taxes. It's a great country! I will tell you that I used to sell him all his remote controls for the boom box and Wave Radios (when I was with Rohm) ... I sold it to him for $2.50, and he would sell extras or replacement to consumers at $27. Pretty good margin! But people liked the remote control's size and convenience, and as you say, there are a lot of them out there. Who would have thought there was a mass-market radio that would sell for $350? Bottom line ... supply and demand. Dr. Bose knows EXACTLY where the marginal cost and marginal revenue curves intersect, and his employees, for the most part, appreciate it. I don't think his company has ever gone through a major downsizing due to declining sales. I have many friends who work there, and while they know they could make more money elsewhere, there's a lot to be said for job security. It sure helps you focus on the job at hand. This is especially apparent to those of us who have been downsized, dot.com'ed, or in the semiconductor freefall (me). My $0.02 ... I just love this country!! ------------------ If you don't like what is coming out, you wouldn't like what is going in." -PWK- --------------------- TWO-CHANNEL SYSTEM AES AE-25 "Superamp" AES AE-3 Pre-amp New Tube 4000 CD Player 1976 Klipschorns (ALK'ed) HOME THEATER Klipsch 1968 ALK Cornwall "II"s (LF/RF) ALK Belle Klipsch (Center) Klipsch Heresy (RR/LR) Klipsch KSW-12 sub Sonic Frontiers Anthem AMP1 (driving Cornwalls) Sonic Frontiers Anthem AMP1 (driving Heresy's) Denon AVR-4800 Toshiba SD-3109 DVD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpgwagon Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 I'll trade a pair of cubes for your Scala's.Then you can have speakers that don't suck. ------------------ http://gallery.consumerreview.com/webcrossing/images/MYSTUFF.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobCurran Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 My pet peeve against Bose is the market saturation. My God, they must be making some serious bucks. The average shmuck gets brainwashed into thinking Bose is a really good speaker. That mostly what they see for speakers...THEY'RE EVERYWHERE! Its all very sad. ------------------ A/V AMP: Yamaha DSP-A1 TV: 29" Sony Trinitron DVD: Toshiba SD9200 CDP: Denon DCM-370 MAIN: Klipsch Heresey II CTR: Klipsch KSF-C5 REAR: Infinity SM-65 (crap) SUB: Infinity BU-1 (crap) This message has been edited by Rob Curran on 02-27-2002 at 07:14 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seb Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 I agree Rob. Even here in Canada, where we dont see as much Bose marketing as in the US, people come to me and tell me: "hey, you know, I saw this TV ad, and they were selling the little Bose system... do you have it?" "no, but we have a lot of other small systems that cost less and perform better, I'd at least advise you to just take a listen before you buy Bose..." "yeah... well apparently they are really good, they are small but play like huge speakers, they seem REALLY good!" "ummm... sir, look, I really don't like to put down other products, that's why I'll put it very conservatively: just go take a listen to any other system before you buy Bose, even if it's not in our store, just to make sure they really sound better." "yeah, sure, okay... where do they sell them?" "Future Shop sir. you just go out the mall, there's a big sign, you can't miss them, they also sell fridges and CDs..." "thanks Chief!" I mean, those people see ONE AD, and they right away believe what is said. That image of the little clock radio turning into a major stereo system sticks in their mind I guess... But how can these people believe upfront what is said in a PAID ADVERTISEMENT??? I guess I'm not as ticked off by Bose marketing (hats off to them), but rather by human stupidity, the only other infinite thing besides time and the number of stars in the Universe. ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 BEAT THIS: When I lived in London, I went to a pizza place back in some London neighborhood, it wasn't a chain. It was one of those post-modern places with lots of stainless steel and halogen spotlights. Anyway, I went in, was seated and was listening to their radio. Well, I will cut to the chase. The fruits in there had an Acoustamass system (the cubes) and THEY WERN'T RUNNING THE BASS MODULE!!! It not onlt sounded bad, but the DJ on the radio had a low voice and it was getting cut off! COuld those fashion/art lover people running the place NOT hear that there music sounded like crap?! I ate my lunch and left. I wonder how many people buy Bose without even listening to any other systems? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 It's interesting that the couple who sold me my Cornwall II's replaced them with a set of Bose Acoutimass. He knew that they would not sound as good (he admitted as such). However, they lived in a small dwelling, and wanted the space back. That's powerful marketing to convince a Klipsch owner to switch to the Bose. I sold Bose back when I sold audio, and I do understand the allure of them to the average joe, who isn't that picky about his audio. I was fortunate to be able to do A/B demos with Bose against other products - and while revealing the inferiority of the Bose Acoustimass (dollar for dollar sound against other products), this did not hurt Bose sales. The name, the extremely high WAF, and powerful advertising sold the speakers on thier own, with little coaxing from me. People would walk in and simply say "I'll take a set of those". Bose looks good too - which is just as important if not more important, to the average consumer. If a customer was open to the idea of a larger speaker or a different brand of sub/sat kit, and had a more discerning ear, the Bose was not an automatic sale. In fact, those who really spent time listening did not normally choose Bose (especially not the Acoustimass). Dave ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seb Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 quote: Originally posted by dndphishin: If a customer was open to the idea of a larger speaker or a different brand of sub/sat kit, and had a more discerning ear, the Bose was not an automatic sale. In fact, those who really spent time listening did not normally choose Bose (especially not the Acoustimass). Dave Noooooo!!! Serious?? ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 I bet a good sub/sat kit would be VERY nice. Get some small bookshelf speakers (5.25", 2-way) and a 10-12" sub and some decent spurce components. I bet if you choose and listened carefully, you would have a smoking, compact system. Bose is TOO small, but some 5.25" woofers could move all day at 80Hz and the well-hidden subwoofer could do the bottom. Isn't that what the new Bose system is doing. Aren't the now Bose systems getting BIGGER!, YES, BIGGER! My rich (really rich, old money) aunt has over 4000 CD's and, well, you guessed it, a Bose Acoustamass system, in a 18' X 32' room! It sounds horrible! I have tried to convince her to get some decent stuff (god, she could afford come RB-5II's and a sub, enough couched to hide them behind!) But its "proper" to have the small system! Comes on Aunttie, them there Klipschies for Our-Kansas gots them there fancy reals treeses on thems! Aints thems sem prity speakas! I go gets them possem from yander! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 Let us identify what is bugging us. Back in college, in the early 1970's, "marketing" was a suspect area. "The War" and soap suds were being agessively marketed to our hearts and minds. Is it not propaganda which is intended to distract from a thoughtful analysis of the merits of a product or philosophy? Such distraction is annoying in that it is anti-intellectual. It really looks like some marketing is an effort to tell you how to think. It is okay to present the merits of your side versus the other, but when it steers away from an essestial judgment mechanism on the merits of a product, people get annoyed. My philosophy is that speaker performance is the quality which matters most. Appearance and size is secondary. Generally, one's ears do the voting; or should. It seems to me that this was/is the philosophy of PWK. Pretty much, listen to live music, listen to speakers, and PWK's units win over other speaker designs. It is a bit offensive to have someone try to shift the issue to size and appearance at the compromise to sound. Granted, these are important issues for decorators. Bose seems to prey on the issues, through marketing. For all the opening comments regarding "full, rich sound", they are marketing appearance. So, it comes down to "framing the issue" as we lawyers say, and to some extent establishing which of our senses should vote most heavily on the merits. Regarding the latter, Bose seems to market to eyes (where they have the advantage), Klipsch markets to ears (where they have the advantage). I think the latter is the important issue. Which voter of our two senses should have greater weight in the vote? I note that musicians, to whose "software" product we listen, generally focus on the quality of their music and sonic performance, rather than appearances. Yeah, there is glamor, but no musician lives on that for long. We'd think that Grammies are awarded for sound and not glamor. In a similar vein, musical instruments are judged on their sound, rather than appearance. Granted many instruments are works of art, dressed up with good metal work and woodworking. Yet many are plumbing and mechanical nightmares. They sound terrific, none the less. It would be fairly unthinkable that a musician would give up a good sounding instrument for a glitzy replacement. If the interest is music, software and hardware argue against appearance. We should also recognize that it tough to find a forum for merits of sound where PWK's product reaches full fruition. Bose's strenghs of appearance can be published in print or video. It is not just Klipsch versus Bose. There is some incongruency that sound products are marketed in reading material. This might identify what we find offensive and annoying about Bose marketing. To some extent, Bose's marketing is framing the issue to appearance over sound. Even if they perform well, it is annoying that so much marketing is devoted to appearance. We're probably all here of the same mind. When we hit the power switch and load a CD, we do that to hear music. To the extent that Bose markets the cuteness of little cubes, that is not for which we hit the power switch. I'll listen to 70 minutes of music. I'm not looking at the speakers by Bose or PWK. Gil This message has been edited by William F. Gil McDermott on 02-28-2002 at 02:31 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomer9911 Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 MAN...I miss out on the Klipsch bowling with "cubes" tourney every year...UGH Reminds me of Nuance, your paper driver is sprayed with a "CAR" undercoating, nice and shine, fortunately US Customs has closed the door on them for Import, smog emission. Available "only" in Canada ehhh...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 good point ray though - bose as a business certainly doesn't suck. but to trained ears their speakers certainly do audiowise. both bose & klipsch over the years have moved more toward mass production & mass marketing. just that from their beginnings, klipsch started much higher than bose on the audio quality scale. iow, klipsch can better replicate bose business model than bose can replicate klipsch audio quality. but bose would never try even that. like you say they're doing fine with their much larger market segment. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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