How do I know if new caps are working?

[DrWho]

Original oil can 1976 caps would surely be significantly degraded by now.

Why do you say that?

[Dennie]

Hey TWU,

It has been a couple of days and I was wondering if you've noticed any difference in the sound of the speakers?

Dennie

Well, I've been laying on my back for the last couple of days unable to sit or stand for more than a couple of minutes. I have a herniated disc. My wife thinks I hurt myself moving the speakers. Risking losing the speakers, I told her it was something else. I'm not sure how it happened to be honest. Anyway, as soon as I'm better and not drowsy from pain killer, I'll take a good listen to report back.

Wow, sorry to hear about your back! Take your time and get better.

Thanks for getting back to me.

Dennie

[rontec]

Hello to all,

I noticed many of you use Altec componets now and again. Well, I just wanted to share some info concerning Altec model 19 crossovers that might apply to this thread.

I changed the caps on my altec 19s a while back and didn't hear any improvement. So I put the old caps back in and noticed that there were four ground lugs rivited to the crossover board. After soldering a common wire to all the lugs and properly grounding the wire, it did make a world of difference! (there was oxidation built up over the years between the lugs and the board seriously compromizing the HF)

I don't know if Klipsch crossovers use ground lugs but it might be a good idea to check all the connections and componets on vintage crossover boards before changing caps. It worked for me.

Also ,anyone using Altec crossovers, be sure to bypass those ground lugs. It really is night and day!

BTW, I use to own Cornwalls and hope to someday do what some of you have already done....KHorns & altec combo!

[Coytee]

How do I know if new caps are working?

When I was a kid, I'd take them and hit them with a hammer. If they went "BANG" I know they worked! Only downside was once I verified that they worked, they immediately became useless to me. I don't recommend this method. [^o)]

Regarding the dramatic differences... I have some LaScalas that I bought in 1979 so they are now, 30 years old. When we were building the house they went into storage for a couple years. I finally yanked them out and fired them back up. (this is probably around 2005/2006 I'm guessing). They had the original AA crossovers still in them. I saw no signs of leakage and when I hooked them up, they sounded pretty nice. Having read about these old caps on the forum, a while later, I bought some new ALK Extreme slope crossovers for them and installed them. Was there a difference? I'd say yes however, I'd say it's more akin to the 'lifting a veil' comment than anything more dramatic. I got a much more dramatic change in sound when I added some Klipschorns to the herd. I got even more dramatic change when I swapped the Khorns out for some Jubilees.

I'd liken the speaker changes to the dramatic night/day differences (spam to a NY strip) and the crossover changes being more like ribeye to a NY strip.

Having walked on the side of using an active crossover now for a couple years, I'm really surprised that more don't try it.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Before the caps were replaced, I thought the La Scala sounded incredible with my untrained ears, but that was my first time hearing La Scalas, ever. I think most people like myself, hearing these for the first time, you're just so overwhelmed by how dynamic and loud they sound, might even been slightly harsh. I don't know if that sound is due to old caps but I would have been happy them because for the first time, I felt the music in my bones and it was freakin awesome. So I thought, man..I can't even imagine what they'll sound like with new caps!

After replacing the caps, when I first heard the sound, I must say I was rather disappointed because it didn't have the same impact. The sound was rather laid back compared to before. Maybe it's the harshness that I got used to hearing from the old caps? Maybe they're more balanced now? I distinctly remember hearing Ella Fitzgerald's voice and saying that it was a bit harsh and didn't have the velvety, breathy texture. With the new caps, her voice is not harsh anymore and it's what I would expect her voice to sound like. Whether that's due to new caps or not, it's what I'd prefer so I guess that's a good thing.

Sorry, I'm just rambling. I would love to hear from anyone who's done A/B test, both subjective listening and technical measurements. Bottom line is I guess I don't know if new caps are better or not. It's just different. It's definitely not "night and day" for me, not now anyways.

Uh, I think I'd have to say that the new caps are "working."

People regularly pay huge amounts of money to get the same changes (I will not say improvements because you are not sure if you like it) that you are experiencing.

Try this. If the speakers sound more "balanced" and "laid back" can you listen at lower volumes and they still sound right? Like do you now listen at low volumes and feel like you do not need to turn it up to sound "right."

Try listening to extended periods of time. Can you now listen for hours without fatigue? Maybe the hard impact is gone but for some reason you can just keep on throwing records on and listening for hours and they just seem to sound nice.

Or you throw on a record and songs that you normally do not like are now listenable. I like Fleetwood Mac's Rumors. About 5 great tracks and the rest are merely good. But when everything is sounding just right in a system, the whole album sounds great.

Can you now listen at lower volumes and maybe the hard impact is gone but you hear detail that you never heard before on tracks that you have listened to for years? And you listen at lower volume.

Do a little research on the web. We have an emotional response to boom and sizzle because it grabs our attention (fight or flight response). But the same response is not confortable for long periods ot time and makes you want to turn it off. This has lead to the compression wars in recordings (ruining some very good music) where music is compressed to sound louder on the radio to get your attention, but it sounds like crap.

Give your system some time and enjoy. You will see a big thing with tubes. Tube amps have a mellow sound, not a hard impact sound, and they are sought by many who listen for hours.

[twu]

Before the caps were replaced, I thought the La Scala sounded incredible with my untrained ears, but that was my first time hearing La Scalas, ever. I think most people like myself, hearing these for the first time, you're just so overwhelmed by how dynamic and loud they sound, might even been slightly harsh. I don't know if that sound is due to old caps but I would have been happy them because for the first time, I felt the music in my bones and it was freakin awesome. So I thought, man..I can't even imagine what they'll sound like with new caps!

After replacing the caps, when I first heard the sound, I must say I was rather disappointed because it didn't have the same impact. The sound was rather laid back compared to before. Maybe it's the harshness that I got used to hearing from the old caps? Maybe they're more balanced now? I distinctly remember hearing Ella Fitzgerald's voice and saying that it was a bit harsh and didn't have the velvety, breathy texture. With the new caps, her voice is not harsh anymore and it's what I would expect her voice to sound like. Whether that's due to new caps or not, it's what I'd prefer so I guess that's a good thing.

Sorry, I'm just rambling. I would love to hear from anyone who's done A/B test, both subjective listening and technical measurements. Bottom line is I guess I don't know if new caps are better or not. It's just different. It's definitely not "night and day" for me, not now anyways.

Uh, I think I'd have to say that the new caps are "working."

People regularly pay huge amounts of money to get the same changes (I will not say improvements because you are not sure if you like it) that you are experiencing.

Try this. If the speakers sound more "balanced" and "laid back" can you listen at lower volumes and they still sound right? Like do you now listen at low volumes and feel like you do not need to turn it up to sound "right."

Try listening to extended periods of time. Can you now listen for hours without fatigue? Maybe the hard impact is gone but for some reason you can just keep on throwing records on and listening for hours and they just seem to sound nice.

Or you throw on a record and songs that you normally do not like are now listenable. I like Fleetwood Mac's Rumors. About 5 great tracks and the rest are merely good. But when everything is sounding just right in a system, the whole album sounds great.

Can you now listen at lower volumes and maybe the hard impact is gone but you hear detail that you never heard before on tracks that you have listened to for years? And you listen at lower volume.

Do a little research on the web. We have an emotional response to boom and sizzle because it grabs our attention (fight or flight response). But the same response is not confortable for long periods ot time and makes you want to turn it off. This has lead to the compression wars in recordings (ruining some very good music) where music is compressed to sound louder on the radio to get your attention, but it sounds like crap.

Give your system some time and enjoy. You will see a big thing with tubes. Tube amps have a mellow sound, not a hard impact sound, and they are sought by many who listen for hours.

Thanks! These are very good suggestions. My back is feeling a little better so I think I'll be able take another good listen soon and let you know if the new sound is better or not to my ears. I think you are correct that my expectation of the "impact" I liked with the old caps has to do with the harshness and the concentrated mids. I also remembering listening to Paul McCartney's Unplugged album with the old caps, the "And I love Her" track, his voice came out very strong, more than the instruments, like it was over emphasized in the mids. I initially thought it sounded pretty good. Then when the same song with the new caps, I didn't get the same mids I was getting, and immediately thought something must have gone wrong. I then play the same song on my Dad's Quad ESL and I was basically getting the same balanced sound as my La Scala with new caps, then I knew it's was the recording and that the La Scala is now playing true to it's recording. My lesson here is try the same song with different speakers and compare that to old vs new caps.

[twu]

Well, the wife and kid went out for the day shopping so I had the entire day with my La Scalas and man it was fun. I won't go into the details, let's just say I've never had so much enjoyment listen to all my music.

Try this. If the speakers sound more "balanced" and "laid back" can you listen at lower volumes and they still sound right? Like do you now listen at low volumes and feel like you do not need to turn it up to sound "right."

Yes, I can listen to lower volumes and it still sounds wonderfully detailed and well balanced. It's just more refined. There was even a bit more punch in the bass than I remembered with older caps.

Try listening to extended periods of time. Can you now listen for hours without fatigue?

I listened for about five hours (went by fast!) and felt like I could go for another five. No fatigue what so ever. I played just about genre in my collection, from Krall to Van Halen, Maria Callas, Tomatito, Oakenfold, Soloman Burke. It was cool. I remember hearing a ringing in my ears after listening before, like after going to rock concert. It must have been the harshness. With the new caps, I don't get any of that at all.

[Audible Nectar]

A typical set of 30+ year old networks will have a recessed and sometimes edgy treble, because that cap has built up ESR (electrical series resistance) which restricts the tweeter output. That tweeter still works, but it's choked off a little and is not usually very "clean".

It is normal and expected to adjust the volume to the midrange - to the most prominent or melodic instrument in that midrange. When you do this on old networks the midrange might be OK, but the artifacts/edge rasp come through and the treble never sounds right. After an hour or two on such a network you are looking to turn the volume down - or off - from ear fatigue.

Then with a new set of networks, that midrange seems more recessed, because there is more energy allowed through to the tweeter. Once the network "breaks in" that extra treble tends to blend right into proper balance - clean and crisp with more detail and smoothness.

I found new networks to be quite an interesting thing to investigate and play with. I went nutz on my networks (using V-Caps for my Belle Klipsch) for exactly these "fine tune" topics that are dicussed here. It isn't as much of a night and day difference as it is a refinement that places your speakers back into proper balance, and cleans up those rough "edges". But those "edges" can be unbearable.....and the difference between a lifelong happy owner and one who previously (before this forum) would have sold those speakers.

In response to Craig (NOSValves): It can be true (for some) that the basic film and foil caps for these can be a bit too "etched" or energetic....if so, some of the high end caps offer even more refinements, such as V-Cap OIMP, or Mundorf Silver-in-oil. Granted, the basic A/AA/B/E networks of PWK can make things a bit congested when you really push the speaker hard (in which case the ALK solutions might be in order), but for my use (under 95db in the room in almost all cases) the simpler/"closer sounding" basic A/AA/B/E are preferred here.

[HarryO]

I recapped a pair of AAs last year before the pilgrimage because the sound was harsh and the old Khorns sounded "nasty" on top. So bad in fact I thought the mid drivers and tweeters had seen better days.

When I disassembled the crossovers for clean up and recap I immediately noticed two of the old "oil cans" had no weight to them whatsoever. They had totally leaked dry. The old AA boards were so dirty in them I didn't notice the leakage until I cleaned them up for the recap. The drivers were fine it was just the dried out caps.

This pair had the greatest improvement in sound quality of any I've done. Others I couldn't tell much difference when recapped.

I'm sure some definitely need replaced. Others may not be so bad.

I like to replace the steel inductor screws when recapping. (some were steel and should be replaced with brass, stainless, or glued down)

Harry

[BS Button]

Last night I installed new Soniccaps from BEC on my 1976 La Scala, Type AA networks.

I've read many posts about people getting new caps in their heritage speakers and getting dramatically better sound. That the difference is so obvious that I should be able to hear it. Based on this, I was excited to hear what new caps can do for my La Scala.

But, when I first turned it on, the improvement wasn't that obvious to me. I can hear a difference but I wouldn't say it's dramatic. I can hear the sounds from their respective drivers. Aside from getting measurements and charts, which I can't do for many reasons, how do I know that I've restored the sound of my La Scala as PWK intended? What should I listen for? Could I have done something wrong? Do new caps need to be broken in? What's the sound characteristics of La Scala with old vs new caps?

Finally, a little honesty.

[BS Button]

Last night I installed new Soniccaps from BEC on my 1976 La Scala, Type AA networks.

I've read many posts about people getting new caps in their heritage speakers and getting dramatically better sound. That the difference is so obvious that I should be able to hear it. Based on this, I was excited to hear what new caps can do for my La Scala.

But, when I first turned it on, the improvement wasn't that obvious to me. I can hear a difference but I wouldn't say it's dramatic. I can hear the sounds from their respective drivers. Aside from getting measurements and charts, which I can't do for many reasons, how do I know that I've restored the sound of my La Scala as PWK intended? What should I listen for? Could I have done something wrong? Do new caps need to be broken in? What's the sound characteristics of La Scala with old vs new caps?

Finally, a little honesty.

[BS Button]

Original oil can 1976 caps would surely be significantly degraded by now.

Why do you say that?

Yeah, they could have degraded in a good way.

[deafbykhorns]

Finally, a little honesty.

Maybe he should have upgraded to the ALK's. Did he mention the type of music, sound levels or front end electronics? For my type of listening, the ALK universals were night and day, I almost traded my Khorns for box speakers before the discovery of ALK. For some people, the rebuilt AA's are perfect. I once replaced the caps in a pair of LaScala's AA networks, it was fine with my old MC225 listening to female voice, but with the SS amp, it sounded harsh. Who knows, could of been the horns ringing, etc.... It's a vicious cycle, get ready to start changing tweeters, horns, etc.

[jacksonbart]

They whisper to you while you sleep that they are indeed working.

[DrWho]

Original oil can 1976 caps would surely be significantly degraded by now.

Why do you say that?

Yeah, they could have degraded in a good way.

It is my understanding that the primary aging factor for oil can caps involves degredation of the seals. If they've never been overdriven, and the cans aren't leaking, then I don't believe there is any reason for the behavior of the capacitor to change.

[BEC]

Original oil can 1976 caps would surely be significantly degraded by now.

Why do you say that?

Yeah, they could have degraded in a good way.

It is my understanding that the primary aging factor for oil can caps involves degredation of the seals. If they've never been overdriven, and the cans aren't leaking, then I don't believe there is any reason for the behavior of the capacitor to change.

Oil filled caps (and all other caps) degrade with age whether the
can stays sealed or not. First you will see ESR go high and later
capacitance may change, but ESR is the easiest way to see degradation.
The cap in this picture is not leaking and by all appearance is well
sealed. But this is a very bad cap.