twu Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Last night I installed new Soniccaps from BEC on my 1976 La Scala, Type AA networks. I've read many posts about people getting new caps in their heritage speakers and getting dramatically better sound. That the difference is so obvious that I should be able to hear it. Based on this, I was excited to hear what new caps can do for my La Scala. But, when I first turned it on, the improvement wasn't that obvious to me. I can hear a difference but I wouldn't say it's dramatic. I can hear the sounds from their respective drivers. Aside from getting measurements and charts, which I can't do for many reasons, how do I know that I've restored the sound of my La Scala as PWK intended? What should I listen for? Could I have done something wrong? Do new caps need to be broken in? What's the sound characteristics of La Scala with old vs new caps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennie Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Hey Twu, You may have read something I wrote. Like...taking a blanket off of the speakers or Night and Day difference. Well, it didn't jump out at me as soon as I replaced the crossovers. I noticed it over time. Sure, the speakers sounded better. But it was really over a couple of weeks that the difference really became apparent. So, give it some time and listen to some of your favorite music, stuff you are familiar with and let us know if you start to hear differences. Congratulations on your new capacitors and doing the "handy work" yourself, and I do think you will start to notice them sounding better, the more you listen. Dennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twu Posted December 14, 2009 Author Share Posted December 14, 2009 Thanks Dennie. It's an interesting little hobbie I've found myself in as a La Scala owner. Yes, I did read your post about "taking a blanket off of the speakers...". [] That's the general impression I was hoping to get when I first turned it on. But I'm glad to you said it was over a period of time that you noticed the improvements. I will give it time and report back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldenough Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Hey Dennie, Do you really think there was a difference or do you think something else may have been at work?? Sorry that sounds a little bit...err...what can i say...flippant ....But seriously I have thought about replacing my caps in the AA crossovers, only because of comments made here, but then I have sat down and listened and questioned WHY?? Sure I understand that I will only know IF i replace them. I don't pretend to understand the science or the laymans take on this...I am now concerned even more as I will soon be passing my La Scalas onto another forum member, and I would hate for him to be less than satisfied if my tin ears are not to his expectatons. Advice..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ocnorb Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Not to worry. I am sure he would have no trouble replacing the caps if he felt it was necessary. [] In general the performance of electolytic capacitors degrades with time, however some are like the energizer bunny and just keep going and going But most do change thier characteristics with age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Well I hate to rain on the parade here but replacing the caps in your crossovers with modern film types is never going to restore the sound back to what PWK intended.... These caps are way more effecient then what PWK voiced the crossover with originally. IMHO they actually take these original crossover designs to far to the hot side of things... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 "...... getting dramatically better sound ...." That is the basic problem of attaching words and expectations to a perceptual experience. My own and not very extensive experience with 20 year old Heresies and K-Horns is that there will be an audible difference. This difference will be an improvement. This difference, however, will not be "dramatic" or "night and day" etc. However, I think it is worth doing and it is probably worth a couple of extra bucks to also bypass the caps while you are at it (search the threads). That said, if you spend lots of money on very expensive replacement caps, then you are wasting your time. If you re-design the crossover (and not simply replace the old caps), then you can get a very different sound. I would not recommend a re-design however, since that requires measurements and knowledge that most of us do not have. You would probably end up with a "different" sound but not a "better" or more accurate sound. Good luck, -Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Is there a source for oil "cans"? I've tried here with A/C folks and others, but no success. The A/C folks told me that what's good for elecrical applications won't be very good for "stereo". Something about the specs being all over the place and they are made in China or Singapore, etc. and quality control is not what it used to be... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 This is what the A/C folks told me could possibly be what I'm looking for as an "old school" oil filled "motor cap". Any opinions or would be most welcome. I do understand that modern caps are supposedly "better", but I would like to try an experiment with a pair of Heresy-I's just for the heck of it. http://www.alliedelec.com/Images/Products/Datasheets/BM/CORNELL-DUBILIER/CORNELL-DUBILIER_ACTIVES-AND-PASSIVES_8620846.PDF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennie Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Hey Dennie, Do you really think there was a difference or do you think something else may have been at work?? Sorry that sounds a little bit...err...what can i say...flippant ....But seriously I have thought about replacing my caps in the AA crossovers, only because of comments made here, but then I have sat down and listened and questioned WHY?? Sure I understand that I will only know IF i replace them. I don't pretend to understand the science or the laymans take on this...I am now concerned even more as I will soon be passing my La Scalas onto another forum member, and I would hate for him to be less than satisfied if my tin ears are not to his expectatons. Advice..... Hey Oldenough, I know exactly what you are asking and why. I thought my La Scals's sounded fine. One of the nicest speakers I have ever heard. I asked the same question as you.....is it really worth it. I don't see how it could possibly sound better. That's when I called Bob Crites. He laughed when I asked the question......."Could they really sound better"? So I went ahead and ordered new Type AA/A crossovers. They came (in 4 days)and I couldn't wait to install them. 20min's later they were installed and I was not so pleased. Do they really sound better, I wondered. I listened and listened and it did sound a little better, I thought. But not night and day. I am fortunate, as I have a regular routine. As most of you know I listen to a lot of music. I do not watch night-time TV, I listen to music instead and I have my "favorite" music that I listen to. Just about every night, I get to my last music of the night and I turn off the computer and all the lights and listen to some nice music before retiring to bed. This is my regular routine. A few days after I installed the crossovers I put in one of my favorite CD's, Roberta Flack's "First Take". I sat back, fully reclined in my chair, lights out and just faded away into the music. But this time was different. This time it was like I was hearing this album for the first time. Everything just seemed so much clearer and the stand up bass was now very pronounced. Her voice was so clear, it was like I was hearing it for the first time. There were a couple of places in the music where she would hit a note and I would cringe, as I thought my tweeters were blown. But not any more. WOW! I can't believe this is the same CD that I have listened to at least 25 times. Over the next few weeks I was just blown away by what I was hearing. Everything sounded so much better and the La Scala's now have bass, which they lacked before and I just wrote it off as "La Scala's don't have bass" that I've heard around here many times. Boy was I wrong. They don't reproduce 20hz, like my sub can, but these speakers have some great bass, just not the very bottom end. This is my experience. I have no education in electronics, so I can not speak to what PWK intended or what anyone else has experienced. I do know that replacing the Crossovers made a huge NIGHT AND DAY Difference to the sound. I am sticking to my story and the best description/analogy I can come up with is......"It is like someone took a blanket off of my speakers"! "Everything sounds so CLEAR now"! No muddiness, no harsh sounds at all, unless it is in the recording. As I mentioned in another post, I now here the "air" around the cymbals and I had never heard that before, ever. Oh and BTW, there were no other changes to my system at all during the months that I replaced the crossovers and did my initial listening sessions. I told some of my friends that regularly listen to my system, I don't know why I waited so long to do it. Well, I do know why, I didn't think it would make this much of a difference. But it has most definitely made a HUGE difference. The Best $300 I have spent. Oldenough, I think you are selling your La Scala's for a very reasonable price. As you've read, I paid $1100 for mine and then bought the crossovers and I still feel that these are some of the best speakers anywhere for $1400. Let the next guy (Jim) do upgrades if he wants or thinks it is necessary. Dennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldenough Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Thanks Dennie, well put...you seem quite definite about the improvements it made. I know down the roadI will probably kick myself for selling my La Scala's, it literally took me years to find them. Things have changed and so have our plans so I simply do not have the room to put them in anymore (family commitment). On a good note I have never been happier with my RF-5"s since coming across the right amplification (Luxman). Feeding them LOTS of good quality watts is with out a doubt the key to success. They now play with authority, maybe RF-7's are in my future.[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennie Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Hey Oldenough, I could not imagine selling my La Scala's, but if it came to family or Speakers, well the family would have to go! LOL No, the speakers would go and when the time came that the La Scala's would fit into my family and house again, I would find more, as you will if the time comes. And look at it this way, someone else gets to enjoy them now. We can't even imagine how they will change Jim's life, but we know they will. [] I'm glad you're happy with the RF-5's, I've never heard them, but people speak highly of them around here and Quality Watts make all the difference. Dennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 One thing I've noticed is that some capacitors at least, will "heal" or "reform" (and need to) after periodsof inactivity. For instance, your camera flash will recharge slowly the first 2 or 3 shots after not being used and then, if the battery is strong, will begin to recharge faster. If your La Scalas have been used regularly, the caps may not have dried out and/or lost their performance as much as some folks' speakers have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Hey TWU, Are you sure you replaced the original oil can caps that were in your 1976 speakers? Could the caps you replaced have already been replaced prior? If not and you replaced the originals you should have heard a definite difference in the tweeter output. You should have a much brighter crisper sounding system now in the tweeter circuit. If you do not, have you checked your tweeter output? Are they working properly? Original oil can 1976 caps would surely be significantly degraded by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo33 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 John, AFAIK, my La Scalas have never been in storage and have been used regularly for the last 30+ years. Maybe this is why it keep getting beter and better even with the original AA crossover? One thing I've noticed is that some capacitors at least, will "heal" or "reform" (and need to) after periodsof inactivity. For instance, your camera flash will recharge slowly the first 2 or 3 shots after not being used and then, if the battery is strong, will begin to recharge faster. If your La Scalas have been used regularly, the caps may not have dried out and/or lost their performance as much as some folks' speakers have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twu Posted December 16, 2009 Author Share Posted December 16, 2009 Hey TWU, Are you sure you replaced the original oil can caps that were in your 1976 speakers? Could the caps you replaced have already been replaced prior? If not and you replaced the originals you should have heard a definite difference in the tweeter output. You should have a much brighter crisper sounding system now in the tweeter circuit. If you do not, have you checked your tweeter output? Are they working properly? Original oil can 1976 caps would surely be significantly degraded by now. The guy I got them from said the networks have not been touched. They were the oil can caps. From the looks of them, they looked pretty old. I'll post some photos of them. My dad's an electrician and I'm not sure what meter he used, might have been an ohm meter, he measureed the old caps and said they are bad because they didn't go down to "0". I don't know exactly what that means but I'm guessing anything other than "0" means the entire signal is getting through the caps, causing degradation of the sound? Before the caps were replaced, I thought the La Scala sounded incredible with my untrained ears, but that was my first time hearing La Scalas, ever. I think most people like myself, hearing these for the first time, you're just so overwhelmed by how dynamic and loud they sound, might even been slightly harsh. I don't know if that sound is due to old caps but I would have been happy them because for the first time, I felt the music in my bones and it was freakin awesome. So I thought, man..I can't even imagine what they'll sound like with new caps! After replacing the caps, when I first heard the sound, I must say I was rather disappointed because it didn't have the same impact. The sound was rather laid back compared to before. Maybe it's the harshness that I got used to hearing from the old caps? Maybe they're more balanced now? I distinctly remember hearing Ella Fitzgerald's voice and saying that it was a bit harsh and didn't have the velvety, breathy texture. With the new caps, her voice is not harsh anymore and it's what I would expect her voice to sound like. Whether that's due to new caps or not, it's what I'd prefer so I guess that's a good thing. Sorry, I'm just rambling. I would love to hear from anyone who's done A/B test, both subjective listening and technical measurements. Bottom line is I guess I don't know if new caps are better or not. It's just different. It's definitely not "night and day" for me, not now anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ocnorb Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 I have read all the forum posts here and on audiokarma and other sites about recapping vintage recievers and some very knowledable andqualified persons have explained that new caps have to "burn in" so to speak and get to thier normal "working state" in the circuit and that this "normalizing" period could be weeks or more depending on how much usage the system was getting. They also said "don't expect night and day differences" they said "differences will be subtle and not easily noticed by casual listeners. TThe fellow I bought my 1976 H1s off of had just recapped them as per bob crites recomendations, the speakers have seen a lot of use since I got them and they definatley sound better now than when I first fired them up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSt Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 If your La Scalas have been used regularly, the caps may not have dried out and/or lost their performance as much as some folks' speakers have. I'm thinking about replacing the caps on my old Heresy's. What about just testing the caps with a multimeter first to see how bad they are? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennie Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Hey TWU, It has been a couple of days and I was wondering if you've noticed any difference in the sound of the speakers? Dennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twu Posted December 21, 2009 Author Share Posted December 21, 2009 Hey TWU, It has been a couple of days and I was wondering if you've noticed any difference in the sound of the speakers? Dennie Well, I've been laying on my back for the last couple of days unable to sit or stand for more than a couple of minutes. I have a herniated disc. My wife thinks I hurt myself moving the speakers. Risking losing the speakers, I told her it was something else. I'm not sure how it happened to be honest. Anyway, as soon as I'm better and not drowsy from pain killer, I'll take a good listen to report back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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