oldenough Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 Some cables have some pretty huge caps/resistor properties built into them and they absolutely will change the sound of your system. Why would this happen? 100% copper should be 100% copper. One would expect them to measure the same, saving some difference for length and gauge. Seems like any variances would be due to very poor quality or messing around on purpose. I'm with you on that one Dave...I have good quality but ordinary inter-connects, and although my knowledge of these things is limited i can't understand why I/C's should "change the sound", and if they do then the "fault" has to be inherent to the equipment not the ordinary copper interconnects. Leading me to the conclusion that the manufacturers need to change the ordinary copper wire they are using in their components to some of this exotic wire. If the believers are to be believed then this should lead to some astounding improvements, that surely the manufactures could not pass-up. PS..I just re-read my post.....and I have only succeeded in confusing myself....[:#] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 Why would this happen? 100% copper should be 100% copper. One would expect them to measure the same, saving some difference for length and gauge. Seems like any variances would be due to very poor quality or messing around on purpose. I've been able to track down and identify every issue in my systems related to accuracy, and it's never been the copper wire unless it was faulty. I don't know if there is anything "standard" about line level now, but it was originally pegged in radio days at 600 ohms and specifically set to provide for significant cable length with minimum impact. No question you are a 900 lb gorrilla here when it comes to quality and technical issues, so I am asking, not challenging. I am just yer basic music monkey. Dave Dave I'm kind of shocked you don't know why they measure differently.... It's not just about the wire type although it can have an effect...it's more about construction methods and the interaction between the outer shield, inner conductor and the dielectric insulation material... the best cable companies (not IC manufacturers) report these value on the cable material like Belden for instance. You can read a bit about it here http://www.bluejeancable.com/store/audio/index.htm Quality cables that don't have to cost a bunch of cash... Want them to have that audiphile look go here www.zebracables.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 Yes, it's a band-aid or tone control but in the scheme of things it's a cheap band aid. A few hundred bucks is a lot cheaper than any piece of equipment I own. YMMV. Thanx, Russ Don't get in a tissy Russ.... I said " I'd " meaning me........ you do what you want with your cables...to me fixing or dumping a poorly tuned piece of gear makes more sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 Shouldn't be too much of a shock. I don't buy crap, as I expect durability. However, I don't always use shielded as I've rarely noted any noise. I was assuming plain dual conductor copper. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 Even the cheapo red and white IC's that come with a bargain CD player have a shield of stranded wires that encase the inner conductor and dielectric for the ground connection. All IC's should have some type of shielding. I've never seen the basic 2 conductor set of IC's except with some balck magic wires some folks buy. Heck tear apart a microphone cable..... it will be shielded also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 Craig I have the highest respect for you, but come on. The science that goes into making a standard shielded cable is basic, well understood, (not be me, of course) and hard to get wrong. It's all pretty much the same stuff, except for those peddling cables as a pure marketing ploy. Tell me does Klipsch use shielded inductors? Do my 30 year old Cornwalls, need exotic gold connectors to function properly. Should my Marantz8b, have the wiring changed out for oxygen free? How about the 3 or 4,000 miles of wiring in the grid that brings the power to my house. Why it's amazing that my light bulbs light after all the various voltage, and wire sizes those frisky little electrons go through just to get to my house. Now if you want to talk about transformer windings than yes the winding can make a difference because we are talking about generating a magnetic field. Fancy phony cables can probably generate something along the lines of a magnetic field, but why would someone want that in their signal path. Outside of the basics, of carrying a signal and minor shielding for hum, cables, and wire should not be allowed to affect the sound. From an engineering viewpoint why would anyone want to deliberately inject more elements into a design without a proven, consistent effect. It's all bokum, hokum and smokum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 Thebes.... Where do you or any one else in this thread get the idea that I advocate expensive black magic cables......... CABLES CAN SOUND DIFFERENT this is an absolute fact. Where do you get the idea that I think it takes some great ability or magic to make a good cable? I sent links to some of the cheapest custom cables known to man..... So why the hassle? This is the exact reason why I stay the hell out of here most of the time.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapZark Posted July 12, 2010 Author Share Posted July 12, 2010 NOS don't get too worked up. Take a look at Thebes picture. That explains a lot. [] I like to spark these kind of discussions so I can learn something from folks like you. I'm just a amature who loves vintage equipment and Klipsch speakers, but guys like you (and Thebes) keep me coming back to this forum. A little banter is good for the soul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennie Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 Take a look at Thebes picture. That explains a lot. I always thought it brought up more questions than answers.......[^o)] But that is probaby just me! [] Dennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 Heck tear apart a microphone cable..... it will be shielded also. I hate being suckered onto your ground...Sun Tzu suggest it's a pretty dumb move. OTOH, fer cryin out loud a mike signal is minuscule compared to line level and I use Mogami or similar always for my mikes. Sheesh, in the past I've picked up CB and other radio transmissions in hifi from broken or defective mike shields, but never at line level. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 Is it the cables causing alterations to the sound or the impedence mismatch between electronic units? JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 Thebes.... Where do you or any one else in this thread get the idea that I advocate expensive black magic cables......... CABLES CAN SOUND DIFFERENT this is an absolute fact. Where do you get the idea that I think it takes some great ability or magic to make a good cable? I sent links to some of the cheapest custom cables known to man..... So why the hassle? This is the exact reason why I stay the hell out of here most of the time.... Well now that you've come around to my way of thinking I'm prepared to forgive and forget.[] Actually you re right and I do owe you an apology for not reading your statement carefully enough. Sometimes, I can't help myself, especially when cable threads are involved. I do so love a cable thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 So why the hassle? This is the exact reason why I stay the hell out of here most of the time.... OK, Craig, given your bit of pique about this I'll back off as well. I would certainly agree that two cables can sound different, but my take on it would be that one of them was defective for audio purposes. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 CABLES CAN SOUND DIFFERENT this is an absolute fact. Ok, never to leave well enough alone. From my view "Cables Can Be Made to sound different, is probably how I would describe it. Generally they (edit: forgot the word "don't) sound different if manufactured for shielding and to carry a signal. Unless someone goes out to deliberately make it so, I can think of no legitimate reason for doing so, other than to make a few bucks. I do believe that we both agree that making them sound different solves no problems that shouldn't be addressed elsewhere in the audio chain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 Dave, Geezzzz quit being anal.... I just used a Mic cable as an example since it would be right up your alley... but regardless just about all audio IC's have shielding was the point I was trying to make. Almost zero are 2 single wires... All cables have some negative effect of the signal they carry and this is easily measured with a multi meter.... "too me" limiting this effect is the key to cables (Oh and let me qualify this strongly so I don't offend any babies in here "TOO ME"). In the end it does not take a ton cash to accomplish what I prefer... again I will double qualify "WHAT I PREFER") Honestly I could careless what every one does with there cables. I simply thought some truth should be told in this thread... Cables can and do sound different and its easily supported with facts not black magic. In a perfect world IMHO you want cables that make the least difference and again these cables do not break the bank. I'm going back to work you guy's have way to much time on your hands...[] Thebes kiss my behind [] or better yet have the twins do it ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 I'm going back to work you guy's have way to much time on your hands... OK, let's compare post counts...[6] Personally, I think the problem is that we are in violent agreement. Mogami isn't cheap, but it's also doesn't require a raid on the kids college fund. It's also neutral. That's all I expect from any interconnect. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 I saw Myth America on cable, and she was very much busted. I'd like to interconnect with her, but I'm sure she's well shielded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapZark Posted July 13, 2010 Author Share Posted July 13, 2010 Good reading, but none of this explains why my Wal-mart cables sound as good as a $250 dollar cable named after a snake or something like that? And by the way, I kept the cables because they look really cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 Good reading, but none of this explains why my Wal-mart cables sound as good as a $250 dollar cable named after a snake or something like that? Of course it explains it. The conclusion is that cables can sound different, not that each does. You have two cables that to your ear sound identical. To someone else, with a different system, they may sound different. Notice we haven't been arguing over which sounds better. That's a whole different can of snakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 Good reading, but none of this explains why my Wal-mart cables sound as good as a $250 dollar cable named after a snake or something like that? And by the way, I kept the cables because they look really cool. Read closely. It's because they both meet good design standards. Meeting them with cheesy components is possible, but subject to a short life span, meeting them with first class materials costs more, but not an eyepopping amout more. If there is a difference in your WalMart and snake-brand cables it's in materials and markup, not in anything that impacts the signal in an audible way. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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