Interconnect Myth Busted

[PrestonTom]

Don, at some level I suspect we are in violent agreement. Let me explain my cynicism by the following thought experiment (and why it ends up being difficult for the larger discussion to go from metaphysics to science).

Take a group of 25 audiophiles and put them into a room. Place a capacitor in front of them and also place an inductor in front of them. Now explain to them that have a choice of wiring the the capacitor (or the inductor) either in series with a speaker or wiring it in parallel. We won't make them multiply any numbers, so we won't ask them about corner frequencies or make them consider the nominal impedance of the driver. We'll just keep it qualitative.

Instead we ask them about the four possible combinations: inductor or capacitor wired either in series or in parallel with the speaker. Specifically, we will ask: which combinations will give a low pass filter or a high pass filter? We will keep it as simple as that, they just have to answer "high" or "low".

The sad truth is that:

1) The majority of the audiophiles will get the answers wrong.

2) The majority of the audiophiles will argue at great length why the real concern is whether the capacitor is this kind of film or that kind of film, or whether it is this kind of metal or that kind of metal or whether it is yellow, green, red or orange, in oil or not in oil, whether it is cryogenically treated, etc, etc.

Now, if we discuss cables without resorting to physics and engineering, we can go on and on and on.

Lest you think that I am too jaded, there actually are some recent & interesting observations/measurements that Jon Risch has been discussing regarding cables.

[Don Richard]

Take a group of 25 audiophiles and put them into a room. Place a capacitor in front of them and also place an inductor in front of them. Now explain to them that have a choice of wiring the the capacitor (or the inductor) either in series with a speaker or wiring it in parallel. We won't make them multiply any numbers, so we won't ask them about corner frequencies or make them consider the nominal impedance of the driver. We'll just keep it qualitative.

Instead we ask them about the four possible combinations: inductor or capacitor wired either in series or in parallel with the speaker. Specifically, we will ask: which combinations will give a low pass filter or a high pass filter? We will keep it as simple as that, they just have to answer "high" or "low".

The sad truth is that:

1) The majority of the audiophiles will get the answers wrong.

2) The majority of the audiophiles will argue at great length why the real concern is whether the capacitor is this kind of film or that kind of film, or whether it is this kind of metal or that kind of metal or whether it is yellow, green, red or orange, in oil or not in oil, whether it is cryogenically treated, etc, etc.

I feel that most will have a harder time understanding integrators.

Saying that a "typical" interconnect is a multipole filter with attenuation effects in the megahertz range will show how far these effects are from audible frequencies.

The exact frequency will depend on the circuit's impedance, but in all cases will be up in the RF range.

Further study may discover a correlation between out-of -band filtration and in-band audibility. I know that out-of-band filters are used in loudspeaker processors for phase correction purposes. Is something like this going on?

[jdm56]

Wow. I have to go to work a twelve-hour shift at 7AM and here I sit in front of the VAIO at 1:21 AM, having just read seven pages of posts about wire. I'm really gonna hate myself in the morning...oh wait; it already is morning. [:S]

[JJkizak]

Now I have to get rid of all my coat hangers and buy live wires.

JJK

[pzannucci]

Anybody here tried Teo Audio Liquid cables? How would a liquid conductor compare to plain copper[um]

[Mallette]

Anybody here tried Teo Audio Liquid cables? How would a liquid conductor compare to plain copper

No, I can't say it...

Thebes or fini, by my guest.

Dave

[fini]

I was gonna say, they're probably more expensive. I'll let thebes take the high road.

[fini]

[Y]

[Mallette]

Which sounds best? The fine Mohawk carpet, or the James River?

Dave

[NOSValves]

Which sounds best? The fine Mohawk carpet, or the James River?

Dave

I've always been partial to Indians so I say the Mohawk....

[thebes]

Ok, Mark, Tom and Don, I’m pretty rusty as to the history of
philosophy but I do seem to remember that metaphysics gave rise to the
scientific method thus leading to the birth of science. It seems appropriate, because, when it comes
to audio, it has and always will be, a
complicated mix of science and metaphysics. Most audiophiles are not scientists
nor are they engineers. They do have
other skill sets, however, and bring them to their love of music and their
passion for audio. Scientists and
engineers design the wonderful implements we use. We modify, tweak or get rid of them, as needed on our march to
audio nirvana. I’m sorry, audio is where science and mysticism meet, to unleash
the bottled magic of music into our living rooms.

I say to you the empirical underpinnings of the physics of
something like a interconnect can only take you so far. Then the ear, a scientific instrument of
it’s own, must also render a verdict.

Look Mark, I understand that a cable is a “component” in the
audio chain, but it’s also one of it’s simplest components. What the cable industry has done however, is
to elevate it’s status from a minor mechanical device into equal status with
all the major components of the audio chain. In other words, millions of
suckers are being taught to believe that having the right rca wire is equally as important
as having the proper amplifier, preamp, speaker and source.

I’m sorry, monster wire does not rise to the level of a
Williamson, Hafler or Deneen.

Then there are the practical aspects, cut open all but the
fanciest cable and you will find 22-gauge wire, with minor differences in
shielding, rubber and termination. And yes, all this stuff invariably sounds
the same only the price points changing as the level of greed rises. Please remember that part of our existence
on this Forum, the reason we are allowed to play here, it to lend a helping
hand to provide information to people coming here with questions. My recommendation will always be the same to
those folks, spend your money anywhere else but on cable. In most instances,
the differences are negligible unless someone is deliberately out to manipulate
how the cable’s sound.

Remember, we all started here because of respect for one
quality component in the audio chain, Klipsch. Klipsch gives very good value
for the money. It’s an honest product, made by honest people. Not everybody is like that. To me, a thief
in my own house, is no different a thief than someone selling me bogus
insurance, or phony cables. Simply
because they are in the marketplace doesn’t stop them from being thieves.

Finally, implying that I’m some sort of religious Luddite
out to take a hammer to progress and new ideas in audio is patently
absurd. Me I’m a half full guy. I don’t
spend my days here dumping on innovation. Indeed, I specifically and
deliberately refrain from participating in most technical discussions, because
they lie outside my own limited audio skill set. (Seriously, review all 4,000 of my posts and you will see that
this is true. I’ll expect a report by Monday.
Ok, Ok, there was that one time, but that’s all. Honest, Scouts honor.)

But cables? Wire?
I always have an opinion on them.

[fini]

Which sounds best? The fine Mohawk carpet, or the James River?

Dave

I've always been partial to Indians so I say the Mohawk....

Well hell's bells, why choose? I give you the Mohawk River in New York!!

[Don Richard]

There is a ton of engineering information on cable design and construction, involving capacitance,inductance and resistance. These are the main parameters affecting audio range cables. There is more to consider, however - skin effect, SCIN, parallel conductance, standing wave ratio and phase velocity (now we are starting to sound like a snake-oil cable ad). However, these factors affect higher than audio frequencies. To put it simply, the wavelength of audio frequencies are too long relative to the typical wire lengths found in most home audio systems to be affected by the cable. For longer cable runs in some home systems, and in commercial systems, there can be high frequency loss. The cure (in commercial systems) is to equalize the system. These rolloffs are minimum phase, so EQing the frequency response will also correct any phase anomalies. It's that simple.

Digital audio transmission lines are a different matter. The frequencies are much higher and the data is in the form of square wave digital pulses. This causes stuff like standing wave ratio and characteristic impedance to become important. If you are sending hi-rez audio to your DAC, poorly designed cables may cause problems such as square wave distortion and amplitude losses. Make certain that the cable you get for that purpose are designed for digital signals, as regular analog interconnects could create issues.

[kaiser SET say]

Somewhere back some 6 pages ago Craig gave the answer. You want a cable that just gives you your music transparently[] Good copper, C-I-R, proper shielding (I'd say 98% of commecial cables meet these requirements) and your in business.

My logic on my cables was to not spend a fortune but to get something that I felt delivered esthetics to match my gears as well as deliver a transparent picture/sound. One of the best reasons to shop A-goN[] Picking up a pristine pair of ic's that originally retailed for $588.00 for $76.00 is/was reasonable to me. Heck I picked up a pair of the crazy money Synergistic Looking glass cables for $80.00[Y] Most expensive (and only new cables) I ever bought were my Signal shotgun bi-wires from Frank at Signal for a Franklin and a quarter for a 15' pair and considering they connect my VK-200 to my Naut 804's I've been very pleased but every man lives with his own decisions[^o)]

Don, would love to know what you consider in a good/inexpensive digital coax?

[Don Richard]

For S/PDIF interfaces ensure that the cable is 75 ohm coax. RG-59 is the one most commonly used. The RCA connectors tend to be a problem with these cables as almost none have a characteristic impedance of 75 ohms. With short runs this will attenuate the signal, but not enough to cause issues, usually.

If I were buying ready-made cables, I'd look at Blue Jeans Cable's offerings. Canare connectors, good wire, and a fair price.

[Mallette]

Interesting that Op Amps should come up. Fanatic headphone listeners make most of us look like total slackers. Many of them have identified $3.00 op amps they believe are as good as the $$$$$ variety. Of course, there is dissension as, like here, so many cannot divorce their ears from their wallets.

However, the science is sound.

Dave

[Mallette]

Why People Buy Cables.

I think you have it in a nutshell, Mark.

Dave

[Jeff Matthews]

Yeah. Good old lamp cord for me. Been that way for 25 years. Although, one of these days, I might break down and put some banana plugs in place. Snap and click is better than twist 'n turn.

[Don Richard]

Look Mark, I understand that a cable is a “component” in the
audio chain, but it’s also one of it’s simplest components. What the cable industry has done however, is
to elevate it’s status from a minor mechanical device into equal status with
all the major components of the audio chain. In other words, millions of
suckers are being taught to believe that having the right rca wire is equally as important
as having the proper amplifier, preamp, speaker and source.

The high-end audio press (TAS, Stereophile, etc.) encourage buyers to spend 20% or so of one's hi-fi budget on wires. On a $10K system that's 2 grand... on wires! I have seen little info suggesting that amount be spent on room treatments. Between those two choices, use Radio Shack interconnects and invest in treatments. Your system will sound better as a result.

As far as comparing jewelry and Ferraris to cables, gold and gemstones and exotic cars have inherent value. $1000 cables have $150 worth of WBT connectors and half that much (maybe) in wire. I hate to see folks get ripped off when they could spend their money on truly effective improvements. All that the folks who buy this stuff are doing is demonstrating their naivety.

[Mallette]

You guys that are just "antique collectors" aren't really considered part of the audio hobby by industry.

Indeed, that would be a mistake. My hobby is MUSIC. The equipment is a necessary evil.

Dave