Interconnect Myth Busted

[NOSValves]

That lower illustration is a bit extreme there Mark... what is the cable 600 feet long LOL!!

[seti]

Isn't eutetic a generic name for the manufacturing type of most tin/lead rosin core solder? I have never heard of a brand name eutetic.

Eutectic Castolin is a Swiss company. My dad worked for them for over 20 years. They mainly produced products for industrial applications like metal spray powders, high end welding rods, various other things and equipment.

[Mallette]

The question was asked how could one cable sound different than another?

And it was answered. If it is poorly designed, it will affect the sound.

The other side is, if it affects the sound and you like it, wunnerful.

Dave

[NOSValves]

Mark,

Oh you're singing to the choir... I agree completely. My only point was the illustration was extreme and many novices might take it as a serious possibility. I can't imagine a 3' IC exists that would effect the signal to that extreme.... but then again maybe [] If it does I bet it costs $3000 for the 1 meter pair LOL!!!

[NOSValves]

Seti,

I did not miss-spell eutetic..... it is not eutectic... look it up (I had too). From what I gather eutetic is a cooling method in reference to solder that goes from heated liquid to solid in a very quick fashion with tempature change (hot to less hot). Me thinks Fini was trying to catch me up..... typical Fini! or he he spelt it wrong []

[fini]

Seti,

I did not miss-spell eutetic..... it is not eutectic... look it up (I had too). From what I gather eutetic is a cooling method in reference to solder that goes from heated liquid to solid in a very quick fashion with tempature change (hot to less hot). Me thinks Fini was trying to catch me up..... typical Fini! or he he spelt it wrong

No, it was a serious question. Just wondered if you'd ever used it. Seems to have appealing properties and I wondered if its use had any downside.

"An important tin/lead solder is 63/37, called “eutectic,” meaning

it goes directly from solid to liquid without a pasty stage. This alloy

melts at 361°F (183°C), the lowest melting point of any tin-lead alloy.

Other eutectic solders include

• 62.5% tin, 36.1% lead and 1.4% silver (354°F, 179°C)
• 96% tin and 4% silver (430°F, 221°C);
• 97.5% lead and 2.5% silver (581°F, 305°C)
• 0.75% tin, 97.5 % lead and 1.75% silver (590°F, 310°C).

The advantage of a eutectic solder is that it flows very easily.

Surface mount components are usually soldered with a eutectic solder. A

slightly different alloy, 60/40, provides a thicker coating on wires. "

Copied from this website:

http://www.sizes.com/materls/solder.htm

[Mallette]

Craig might have a reference to the original broadcast specification for line level, but I couldn't locate it on line. I know it was 600 ohm, but can't recall the voltage. It was supposed to have minimal impact on the signal for "X" feet...perhaps a 100.

Dave

[thebes]

Pretty much anyone with a stereo can hear differences in wire & cables if the differences are made large enough, exaggerated enough. (Connect your speakers with 26ga hookup wire to see what I mean).

I'd like to give that a try. Would car battery jumper cables be sufficiently thick?

[thebes]

And all of this doesn't even address the subject of noise introduced into all cables - another concept that plagues every single cable ever made. Hmmmm? Different cables reject or admit noise at different frequencies.....hmmmm?

Very intriguing. Are you implying or perhaps speculating that snake oil cable companies simply deliberately induce noise at certain frequencies in order to have their cables create a certain "sound" .

[Mallette]

The usual way to demonstrate this is to use your current speaker wire - probably around 12ga - as "A" and then get a spool of Radio Shack 26ga "speaker wire." It is very, very thin.

I don't think anyone here would dispute that. Cut the power to your amp in half and it will sound different. Undersize a fuse and it will blow. Put a 300w bulb in a 60w socket and it will not work very long.

Undergauging wire for speakers is no different than undergauging wire for power transmission. The fact that it may sound different is symptomatic of incorrect procedure. If a pure copper wire of the proper gauge for the current in question sounds different, it's due to a way overtrained ear that is also going to detect that one string on the Strad is slightly undergauged or a small black hole nearby.

Dave

[NOSValves]

Fini,

From what I understand Eutetic or Eutectic how ever you want to spell it is not a brand.... it is a type of solder. Yes I use it. It goes from liquid to solid very quick. It's the cats meow IMHO and available from just about any solder manufacturer in fact I'm pretty sure its just about a standard in solder from all manufacturers.

[Mallette]

Thicker wire has less, but never zero resistance.

Differences in engineering: vast.

Differences in interconnects or speaker wires, Belden or equivalent and gauge of good copper matched to current: not so much.

Great listening test would be getting the right wire for the current, then switching to the same wire super cooled.

Dave

[Mallette]

A hundreth of an inch is not noteworthy to a carpenter, but it surely is to a tool and die maker.

Move a single chair in a concert hall, and there is someone who can hear the difference. There are extremes to everything. The tool and die maker analogy isn't a good one. A specificaton is either correct or incorrect to a tool and die maker, not a matter of better or worse, or just different.

The "just different" thing is what I've settled on. In my case, I find myself to be a very critical judge of engineering. I can mentally image the type and placement of mikes in good recordings, as well as quite a few other things many would not find of interest.

However, in the playback chain, I mainly detect flaws in the equipment. If these are corrected, what I hear is either accurate or not accurate. It will be the same whether the room is live or dead, or wether I'm listening to a good car stereo.

Things so minute as audible differences in wires are only of interest to those who've built a very precise environment and become so part of it that even a dog lieing in the signal path will make an audible difference to them.

I believe the above, and I believe those persons must do whatever it takes to "get it right."

So I'd don't debate those things. Those folks who've made it a point or accidently become attuned to these things have to do whatever they need to do.

For me, I'm good as long as it's accurate.

Dave

[thebes]

Thanks Mark for the correction on gauge sizes, don't know what I was thinking. All though I think I will try it your way, and my way (I think battery jumpers hooked up to speakers might tbe interesting indeed- "Hey, Bub, how many cold cranking amps do those Cornwalls have?")

I'm not kidding when I say I must admit I love being around smart people, I love the way the way they don't think like simple souls like me. Your basing your conclusion on science and engineering, the formula and physics leading to the theoretical proposition that there should be readily discernible differences between cables. Nah, more than theoretical, because I will not challenge your understanding of the physics that this must be true.

I will reserve final judgment until above mentioned test have been performed, but I still say to you, that on the whole, cables are cables,and anybody going out of there way to make them sound different is simply peddling copper, and expensive copper at that.

Quite frankly, I think you are being just a bit disingenuous here, when you claim there is no practical way to resolve this issue by ear. I'm sure in designing the various components you have constructed over the years, the thought of how they'd sound using a particular cable never so much as crossed your mind. Yet, on the other hand, transformers, the various bits and pieces, tube types, capacitors, cost, availability, were all factors in building a certain piece of equipment. If you never lost sleep over it, why should I or anyone else? Because, and I say it again, inducing sonic differences into the audio chain via cables is counterproductive, a colossal waste of money , and yields no discernible benefits.

Any decently, and most not so decently, cables will sound pretty much the same unless somebody is out to cook the books. And yes, my ears are good enough to tell the difference.

[thebes]

Almost forgot, RatShack only sells 24 gauge not 26 so I'll buy some of that.

[Dennie]

I Love this stuff!

Dennie

[Mallette]

This means that what you hear is always modified by the sound of x.

So, when I order a draft beer, there has to be an interconnect between the barrel and the tap. It's going to change the character of the beer.

I think I'll drink it anyway.

Mostly you and Dave there are wanting to argue about the WHY.

Not really, the "why" the character of the beer is going to be changed is well known and a matter of science. The fact that, as long as you don't make it out of lead or biscuit dough, it makes no difference that matters is what I argue.

When one of my kids leaves the door to my listening room open I detect a change and close it. It isn't blocking the speaker, it's simply altering the sound field slightly and I've used the room so much it is quite apparent. But it isn't "wrong!" Just different. If I left the door open all the time I'd probably get up and open it if someone closed it. I am also certain that if I put Sonex on it, I'd notice. If I put a mirror on it, I'd notice.

I just close the dang thing. Much less trouble.

My point: There are things in audio that are "wrong." There are things that are "different, but not wrong."

So, to apply the alcoholics prayer, "God grant me the wisdom to recognize the difference."

Dave

[Don Richard]

X is not, and can not be without electrical properties, as I have clearly shown. X is a component with electrical properties no matter who makes it, no matter what it is made from, and no matter it's price. X is not absolute in any sense of that word. X is not neutral, x can not be a "standard", x is not zero, x is not accurate, x is not propertyless. X can not be a reference except to itself. X obeys all laws of physics, and it's transfer function contains distortion.

Can you put some numbers on electrical properties and how these properties affect the intergrator transfer function vis-a-vis input frequency?

[PrestonTom]

X is not, and can not be without electrical properties, as I have clearly shown. X is a component with electrical properties no matter who makes it, no matter what it is made from, and no matter it's price. X is not absolute in any sense of that word. X is not neutral, x can not be a "standard", x is not zero, x is not accurate, x is not propertyless. X can not be a reference except to itself. X obeys all laws of physics, and it's transfer function contains distortion.

Can you put some numbers on electrical properties and how these properties affect the intergrator transfer function vis-a-vis input frequency?

Don, I don't really think Mark needs to attach numbers. I think his point is that a wire or a cable has physical properties that make it a "circuit" and he showed an example of such a circuit. I also feel that he wisely avoided the issue of attaching numbers since that would lead to endless discussions about various combinations of R, L and C's that might have an effect.

He has clearly shown that R. L And C does have a physical impact. It's .... physics!

In his wisdom, he has avoided the unending (an usually senseless) debate about whether, in some particular case, it is audible or does it "remove the veil" from the music.

[Don Richard]

He has clearly shown that R. L And C does have a physical impact. It's .... physics!

In his wisdom, he has avoided the unending (an usually senseless) debate about whether, in some particular case, it is audible or does it "remove the veil" from the music.

And I carefully avoided asking for a correlation between numbers and audibility. Knowing the filter characteristics would be interesting and might move the discussion from metaphysics into science.