Interconnect Myth Busted

[muel]

I can't believe this thread got to be this long.

I was already to get set with some popcorn or maybe some margaritas [D] with some chips and salsa but this plot seems a little too familiar. Somebody needs to throw in some obligatory sex or violence... something.

[DrWho]

But seriously, how does the refinement argument work when all of the quantifiable impacts of the cable are totally swamped by the non-linearity of the speakers / room?

Oh, so now I shouldn't be able to hear a difference. Well played.

If the room & speakers trump everything, I should be able to swap in any amp and not discern a difference in the same room with the same speakers, correct?

I'm not saying there would be no difference.....just that the difference would be many orders of magnitude smaller than other problems in the system....and because of that, how does the higher level of refinement claim hold any water? It's one thing to talk about minor imperfections tasted in a glass of good wine, but another to talk about those differences when the glass is half full of dirt. I just think it makes more sense to remove tbe dirt than to tailor the imperfections of the wine to make the dirt palettable, which is kind of along the lines of Coytee talking about intentional EQ of the system.

[Mallette]

I'm not saying there would be no difference.....just that the difference would be many orders of magnitude smaller than other problems in the system....and because of that, how does the higher level of refinement claim hold any water?

The wisdom of Solomon. Personally, I remain of the "no way any difference can be heard between any two interconnects unless something is wrong with one of them...bad wrong and to suggest one might hear a difference in digital cable is patently absurd." However, I may well be deaf, so that't purely personal operation.

Heck, I can move a few items around in my listening room and "hear a difference" quite clearly. Makes sense...I've been listening in there for 5 years to the same equipment. However, I am experienced enough to know it really isn't better or worse, just different, and only slightly at that.

Mike has the objectivity of science and common sense on his side.

Regards,

Dave

[Don Richard]

Cables do not impart any discernible differences as long as the load impedances are well behaved.

What does this mean? The cables' load impedance, or that of the source? Or the amp?

The source impedance, the cable's characteristic impedance, and the load's impedance all affect a transmission line's performance.

http://www.tpub.com/neets/book10/41.htm

[JBryan]

In a perfect world, the preamp's impedance will match the amp's but at best its a moving target and even manufacturers don't often match their own components. Add the cables' own inductance, reactance and capacitance and the signal is affected once again so its no wonder some folks can hear a difference. If one goes to the trouble to carefully match their components, then those with very sensitive systems should be able to discern differences in wires - especially longer-runs with higher I, R. C specs. Those that don't bother matching components when they build their systems have other problems but may use cables to tone down a shrill, tinny CD player or add a bit of high-end sparkle to a mismatched amp and preamp. I'll admit to a time when I was running through amps and preamps like candy and for a temporary fix, it was nice to have some spare pairs of silver and copper ICs around.

The better cable manufacturers keep looking for ways to reduce their cables' I, R, C measurements on the assumption that the lower the specs, the less influence the wires have on the signal and the more neutral the sound. In the end, the differences are extremely slight. I've had quite a few cables in my systems and its a rare occasion when I notice an immediate difference and then its usually something I don't like about the cable. It could take weeks, if not months of switching back and forth to really decide whether I like one cable over another and what I listen for is very nuanced - the shimmer of a cymbal, the attack and decay of a single piano note, the clack of a saxophone's keys or the breath of a vocalist or horn player. The differences are slight and in some cases, not worth the effort but in a hobby that encourages obsessing over the details, its not hard to see why some folks treat cables and wires with the same priority as phono cartridges and tubes. Its all good - if a bit insane.

[Don Richard]

In a perfect world, the preamp's impedance will match the amp's but at best its a moving target and even manufacturers don't often match their own components.

Matched impedances are rarely seen today. Source impedances are engineered to be as low as possible, as low as 100 ohms for professional balanced line level outputs. Input impedances on the receiving end need to be at least 20X that, and typically range between 10K ohms and 40K ohms. Cable impedance becomes less relevent with a voltage source system.

[DrWho]

In a perfect world, the preamp's impedance will match the amp's but at best its a moving target and even manufacturers don't often match their own components.

Matching input and output impedance will certainly maximize power transfer, but in audio, we store the musical information as voltage (not power). You will get better dynamic range, less cable influence, and less low level artifacts if you have a low output impedance (say around 100 ohms) driving a high input impedance (say around 10,000 ohms). I think the term "impedance matching" is a bit of a misnomer since it often refers to setting up the system so that the impedance ratio is ideal for the scenario. You don't want to raise the input impedance up too high though because you start running into issues with the input current-noise.

To make things even better, all of the gain would happen in the front end of the system....but in practice, we generally see the majority of gain in the amplifier, which is absolutely the worst place for it to be. There are several reasons why the industry ended up this way, but I just thought I'd throw that out there since the gain structure and "impedance matching" are intrinsically related to maximizing fidelity.

If you really wanted to go overkill, then custom gear would be the only way to go...and the best part is we can guarantee the maximum influence imparted by the cable when doing so...

[thebes]

For those of you more technically linclined.

[leftwinger57]

I had this debate w/ a bunch of Polkies last year and to a guy cables ICs do matter. Originally I went w/ just simple rca cords until I found some inexpensive Signal Cable ICs and yes there was a qualitative and noticeable difference.Like many will tell you it's where your starting from and since you did not list a sig of your gear Ihave know idea if a cable of better qulity would help.All I can tell you that it did for me and at $40 and change it was worth it.

[ace168516]

This thread makes me want to have a couple of drinks, go to the CO where my phones come out of, uplug the line equiptment from both my telephone lines, hook up an amp and see what my cornwalls sound like through 4100 ft of 24 gauge.

[Guest " "]

This thread makes me want to have a couple of drinks, go to the CO where my phones come out of, uplug the line equiptment from both my telephone lines, hook up an amp and see what my cornwalls sound like through 4100 ft of 24 gauge.

I live near some railroad tracks. I wonder how the speakers would sound if I use the tracks as wires.

[ClaudeJ1]

[quote user="JBryan". Cable impedance becomes less relevent with a voltage source system.

This old thread popped up in the "my discussions area." Almost all, if not all Solid State amplifiers today are designed to behave as a voltage source. I remember the infamous Mark Levinson making a 200 lb., all Class A Power amplifier that was rated at a conservative 25 Watts per channel. It was designed to, in a "brute force" manner, put out whatever current was required to swing 14 volts across any conceivable load.

Again, it's hard to beat the price/performance ratio of 16 Awg. Zip cord up to 100 ft./speaker.

[Coytee]

I live near some railroad tracks. I wonder how the speakers would sound if I use the tracks as wires.

Would you be using banana plugs on the end or wrapping them around the terminal posts directly?

[Y]

[thebes]

This thread makes me want to have a couple of drinks, go to the CO where my phones come out of, uplug the line equiptment from both my telephone lines, hook up an amp and see what my cornwalls sound like through 4100 ft of 24 gauge.

Go for it. The only problem is after 250 feet or so, the signal losses strength or something. I've compared 24 gauge to 12 gauge etc. Try as I might, closing my eyes and wishing upon a star, there's no difference

[thebes]

This thread makes me want to have a couple of drinks, go to the CO where my phones come out of, uplug the line equiptment from both my telephone lines, hook up an amp and see what my cornwalls sound like through 4100 ft of 24 gauge.

I live near some railroad tracks. I wonder how the speakers would sound if I use the tracks as wires.

As Coytee hilariously implied, termination will be a byitch. Besides, as everybody knows, railroad rails only sound good late at night when the whistle blows.

[fini]

This thread makes me want to have a couple of drinks, go to the CO where my phones come out of, uplug the line equiptment from both my telephone lines, hook up an amp and see what my cornwalls sound like through 4100 ft of 24 gauge.

I live near some railroad tracks. I wonder how the speakers would sound if I use the tracks as wires.

As Coytee hilariously implied, termination will be a byitch. Besides, as everybody knows, railroad rails only sound good late at night when the whistle blows.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but train tracks already have terminals.

[Groomlakearea51]

and conductors.......

[H]