Interconnect Myth Busted

[muel]

I wish MythBusters would take this on...

Best idea yet....

Wouldn't that require them blowing something up?

[Boxx]

I wish MythBusters would take this on...

Best idea yet....

Wouldn't that require them blowing something up?

Well..... you may be right... but since I've been hooked on "bait car" what the heck...

[beeah]

I never could get my reciever to stop going into protection mode with these high end cables attached.

Receiver, eh? Is it possible that these cables can indeed sound different, but that your system can't resolve the difference?

Not trying to be snarky, but I can definitely hear differences between cables on my system. I can't say that was necessarily true when I first started down the audio road.

[psg]

I never could get my reciever to stop going into protection mode with these high end cables attached.

Receiver, eh? Is it possible that these cables can indeed sound different, but that your system can't resolve the difference?

Not trying to be snarky, but I can definitely hear differences between cables on my system. I can't say that was necessarily true when I first started down the audio road.

Here we go!

[beeah]

I know this has been beaten to death, but I simply can't resist.

So the conclusion is that all cables sound the same because:

1) Someone - or even the majority - in this forum can't hear a difference.

2) No one in this forum can give a cogent and concise reason why they should.

The next logical conclusion being that, since we've determined without a doubt that all cables sound the same, anyone who claims they can hear a difference is a sucker and/or a looney.

Bollocks.

If my 3rd cousin Biff says that he can't discern a difference between a Medoc and a St. Estephe (which I imagine applies to well over 99% of the population), does that mean wines from different appellations within the same region taste the same? Or... is it just that fewer than 1% of the population have tasted enough Bordeaux, and thereby trained their palates, to detect the difference? Or is it possible that some humans are simply born with more sensitive senses? Or could it be that a severe childhood illness reduced the sensitivity of Biff's taste and/or olfactory senses? Or...

[fini]

Or is it possible that some humans are simply born with more sensitive senses?

Of course!

When I was 39 years old, I heard a story

I found out that they're people walking among us who have superpowers

These people are called Supertasters

To a Supertaster, bitter fruits taste far more bitter

And sweets far more sweet

Then, just a few months ago, I had the chance to meet a real live 
Supertaster named John Lee

And this is his true story...

John Lee Supertaster 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supertaster

[beeah]

John Lee Supertaster

Awesome! []

[DrWho]

So the conclusion is that all cables sound the same because:

1) Someone - or even the majority - in this forum can't hear a difference.

2) No one in this forum can give a cogent and concise reason why they should.

The next logical conclusion being that, since we've determined without a doubt that all cables sound the same, anyone who claims they can hear a difference is a sucker and/or a looney.

You must not have been reading very closely?

I would sum it up that any properly designed cable will not impart audible sonic artifacts. If you can hear a difference, then one of your two cables isn't behaving as intended.

The wine argument is interesting because there is very little difficulty to quantify the difference between two different wines - even when they seem to taste the same to the 1 percentile of educated testers.

It's the classic marketing versus engineering dilemma...and the general public seems to have a real hard time understanding the engineering side of things.

[beeah]

So the conclusion is that all cables sound the same because:

1) Someone - or even the majority - in this forum can't hear a difference.

2) No one in this forum can give a cogent and concise reason why they should.

The next logical conclusion being that, since we've determined without a doubt that all cables sound the same, anyone who claims they can hear a difference is a sucker and/or a looney.

You must not have been reading very closely?

I would sum it up that any properly designed cable will not impart audible sonic artifacts. If you can hear a difference, then one of your two cables isn't behaving as intended.

No, I got it. From your several posts in this thread, I see that you are one of the relative few posters who agrees (or admits) that cables can, and do, sound different. I agree with you that it is imperfections in a given cable's design or construction that gives it a sonic signature.

Where I think we differ is the prevalence of these faults. In my experience, cables generally sound more different than they do the same. Another way of saying this is that there is no such thing as a perfect cable.

Not so hypothetically, let's say that I have auditioned 5 different interconnects in the same position - from CD to preamp - and I've noted differences, albeit subtle, among them all. I've settled on one as the "best", as it sounds the most natural and effortless to me. Since I've rejected four of them based on what I would call sound quality (which is highly subjective), at least 4 of these 5 cables is "not behaving as intended", i.e. faulty. And furthermore, as I'm sure there exists a set of interconnects out there that I would prefer over the ones I've currently selected, all 5 are likely faulty.

I'm fine with this, as there is no such thing as a perfect cable.

What chaps my *** is folks insisting that I can't possibly hear a difference, or worse, that I'm a fool for spending more than $5 at Walmart for a set of cables.

[jacksonbart]

I believe in magic.

I believe in little green men (or women) who carry the audio bytes into my head and the happier they are the better the sound.

I believe the more time I spend on judging the sound experiance listening to music as opposed to enjoying music the better the experiance I have, unless those little green men (or women) are dirty or are upset.

I believe my ears are golden because I can play an instrument/drive a car/deficate regularly/fart and those little green men (not the women, they just nag) tell me so.

I believe in Interconnects!

[beeah]

I believe in magic.

I believe in little green men (or women) who carry the audio bytes into my head and the happier they are the better the sound.

I believe the more time I spend on judging the sound experiance listening to music as opposed to enjoying music the better the experiance I have, unless those little green men (or women) are dirty or are upset.

I believe my ears are golden because I can play an instrument/drive a car/deficate regularly/fart and those little green men (not the women, they just nag) tell me so.

I believe in Interconnects!

See, this guy gets it!

[DrWho]

Not so hypothetically, let's say that I have auditioned 5 different interconnects in the same position - from CD to preamp - and I've noted differences, albeit subtle, among them all. I've settled on one as the "best", as it sounds the most natural and effortless to me. Since I've rejected four of them based on what I would call sound quality (which is highly subjective), at least 4 of these 5 cables is "not behaving as intended", i.e. faulty. And furthermore, as I'm sure there exists a set of interconnects out there that I would prefer over the ones I've currently selected, all 5 are likely faulty.

Well let's make this a bit more fun....

I've heard similar comments before and on some occasions I've actually had the opportunity to swap their cables out on them without them knowing and they never noticed. And to have even more fun, after swapping the cables I've actually asked to plug in my "crappy" cables, and in the meantime I unplug the crappy ones we were listening to and then put the fancy ones back in.....only to have the listener moan about the new artifacts. []

So just out of curiosity, have you ever performed your own blind listening comparisons? I always use that as my own litmus test to make sure I'm not psyching myself out.

The other thing that intrigues me about the golden ear / refinement argument is that a cable difference of around 0.1dB will often be described as quite dramatic, yet the speakers and acoustics being used with those cables are often +6/-20dB in room with all sorts of craziness happening in the time domain too. Even a 10dB variation in response is over 100 times worse than a 0.1dB cable difference. From my perspective, it's like admiring the extra fragrance of a drop of perfume in a 10lb bag of dung... []

But seriously, how does the refinement argument work when all of the quantifiable impacts of the cable are totally swamped by the non-linearity of the speakers / room?

[Cal Blacksmith]

Mike, don't be too hard on the IC zellots, after all, they likely beleve in magic power cords also.[]

[Colin]

1 – the discussion here is about interconnecting patch cords

– the shielded, terminated wires between electronic components, not speaker

cables. There should be a difference. Patch cords should convey low voltage nuances

of musical details, not large quantities of watts, current and power to

speakers.

2 – there are measurable differences in resistance, capacitance

and inductance between patch cords (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/equipment/0906/cable_shootout_pt2.htmhttp://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/equipment/0906/cable_shootout_pt2.htm).

The questions therefore become: are those differences audible; are they

significant; are they worth it?

3 – my limited semi-blind listening test, tabulated in the

same article, indicates that two people listening for differences can

pick them out; the measurable differences are audible

4 – the same test and table indicate the differences are

slight (hence this debate); with a range of 41 to 59 points for 13 subjective

criteria, the difference is 30% - with the best cords costing five times more

than the least rated ones

3 – our chintzy boom box audio systems might be nothing but

dung, but we can still debate the less than obvious merits of expensive patch

cords. Oscar Wilde said it best: “We are all in the gutter, but some of us are

looking at the stars.”

[Coytee]

I've heard similar comments before and on some occasions I've actually had the opportunity to swap their cables out on them without them knowing and they never noticed. And to have even more fun, after swapping the cables I've actually asked to plug in my "crappy" cables, and in the meantime I unplug the crappy ones we were listening to and then put the fancy ones back in.....only to have the listener moan about the new artifacts

Man....you are a stinker!

I can believe that different cables sound different. I was told that was because they can vary in their capacitacne (or was it inductance....or was it both?...I dunno)

Regardless...as those values change, they can change the tone. I get that.

What I then find interesting is, why would people use cables to essentially 'eq' their system on a quasi hit or miss basis when they could perhaps get more neutral cables and simply insert an equalizer and know that they can control and predict the changes they then make.

To totally discredit myself... I'm someone who simply yanks the cables out of the box with the item (those cheapo flimsy ones packaged in China) and plugs them in. I still have some Discwasher brand "gold ends" or what every they were called that I bought in 1979/1980.

I have also used an equalizer before []

[Don Richard]

What I then find interesting is, why would people use cables to essentially 'eq' their system on a quasi hit or miss basis when they could perhaps get more neutral cables and simply insert an equalizer and know that they can control and predict the changes they then make.

Good question. I suppose that many audio neophytes would be intimidated by having the option of adjusting 31 bands or more per channel. If one does not use the EQ properly one can really mess the sound up badly (smiley face curve). Also, the newbies tend to follow the advice in the audio press, who recieve a lot of advertising income from the cable guys.

And that is the crux of the biscuit - the blatantly false advertising put out by some of these cable companies. According to some of the ads your system is miraculously transformed simply by plugging in your brand new Hyper Super Vortex Venommm Cables. Don't hear any difference? You dummy, don't you know these expensive cables need to be broken in? Wait a month and surely all will be well.

Some justify their purchase by equating the uber-expensive cables to luxury items such as Rolex watches. Rolex, however, does not promise the owners of their watches more time, or less time, or a better experience of time because you wear a Rolex. Some of the cable ads seem to bear a remarkable similarity to ads for "enhancement" products such as Grobust for women or similar items marketed to males, or for hair growth products. Desparate people do desparate things, I suppose.

[ClaudeJ1]

So just out of curiosity, have you ever performed your own blind listening comparisons? I always use that as my own litmus test to make sure I'm not psyching myself out.

The other thing that intrigues me about the golden ear / refinement argument is that a cable difference of around 0.1dB will often be described as quite dramatic, yet the speakers and acoustics being used with those cables are often +6/-20dB in room with all sorts of craziness happening in the time domain too. Even a 10dB variation in response is over 100 times worse than a 0.1dB cable difference. From my perspective, it's like admiring the extra fragrance of a drop of perfume in a 10lb bag of dung...

But seriously, how does the refinement argument work when all of the quantifiable impacts of the cable are totally swamped by the non-linearity of the speakers / room?

Went though all this over 30 years ago with local members of the Audio Engineering Society (PWK was a Silver Medal recipient from them). Was involved in the ABX box listening tests from their creators. Cables do not impart any discernible differences as long as the load impedances are well behaved. So bad speaker/amplifier anomalies can be blamed on the cables.........Nelson Pass also proved this a while back. Been there, done that, got the T shirt. Moved on to room problems and better drivers in my speakers. PWK told me that it was a pure waste of time to use 8 AWG monster cable to drive a Khorn woofer with a 30 AWG voice coil..........all marketing BS in his opinion. I can't believe this thread got to be this long.

[beeah]

Cables do not impart any discernible differences as long as the load impedances are well behaved.

What does this mean? The cables' load impedance, or that of the source? Or the amp?

[beeah]

But seriously, how does the refinement argument work when all of the quantifiable impacts of the cable are totally swamped by the non-linearity of the speakers / room?

Oh, so now I shouldn't be able to hear a difference. Well played.

If the room & speakers trump everything, I should be able to swap in any amp and not discern a difference in the same room with the same speakers, correct?

[beeah]

So just out of curiosity, have you ever performed your own blind listening comparisons? I always use that as my own litmus test to make sure I'm not psyching myself out.

Admittedly, I haven't gone back and forth during a single listening session. I have, however, before swapping in a new set of ICs, listened to the current set for a while, powered everything down, swapped cables, then powered everything back up. My concern with this method (as I have no means of "hot" swapping) is that I believe (here we go again) that my system sounds best after a warm up period of at least 15 minutes; a couple hours is better.

My other excuse, errr... rationale, for not doing a blind a/b comparison is that I don't let my family members mess with my gear, which makes the "blind" aspect rather difficult.

Please understand that I do not have so much money invested that I'll have egg on my face if it turns out that Rat Shack cables work for me. In fact, I'd welcome it - I'd sell the others off to raise funds for other audio projects! FWIW, I've spent no more than $75 on a pair of cables, new or used. Aside from the single new pair of cables I've invested in (for the princely sum of $40 or so), the others I've either purchased used (well below retail), been given promotional samples (for the cost of shipping), or been involved in beta tests. I would never have paid full retail for any of the pricier cables I've tried - one thing I agree with everyone else on is that cable vendors are among the worst sort of snake oil salesmen.

At any rate, I'm perfectly willing to do A/B comparisons, and it would probably make sense for those swaps to be done without the benefit of a warm up period. This would level the playing field so long as no one pair of cables has the advantage of a warm up period, assuming there is any benefit to be had from a warm up in the first place.

Any recommendations as to how to facilitate such a comparison are welcome.