Interconnect Myth Busted

[jacksonbart]

Ahhhhhhh.... there is piece in the valley and the birds are chirping....... for now.

[tom b. 57]

" Well, you're just an old geezer, man! How many ring tones have you purchased this past month? How many cell phone MP3 downloads? If less than 20, you are in serious GEEZER territory! "

Hey!

I resemble that remark!

Tom

[Mallette]

Indeed, that would be a mistake. My hobby is MUSIC. The equipment is a necessary evil.

Well, there you go. All the more reason not to care about wires and doo-dads. I think the cable guys really are pitching their products to the "stereo nuts."

Yes sir. A review of my posts would show I have never denied what someone said they heard. However, I have said what many hear are LEARNED differences not relevant to the accuracy of the recording itself. Do I believe there are those who can readily detect the difference between the two 12AX7's you showed earlier. No question about it. I believe there are people who can detect from a recording made at Kennedy Center whether the mezzanine doors were open or closed. Do I need or want either of these skills? No, thank you.

In my case, I can pretty accurately determine type, make, placement, and pattern of a microphone. It is something that came with years of audio engineering and interest in that area. Does anyone here really need it? I don't think so.

Dave

[Jeff Matthews]

" Well, you're just an old geezer, man! How many ring tones have you purchased this past month? How many cell phone MP3 downloads? If less than 20, you are in serious GEEZER territory! "

Hey!

I resemble that remark!

Tom

Ha! I have the BEST ringtone ever! http://web.agria.hu/kepenu/elp/brainsal/karne93.mid

I took and clipped off a part where it is in the middle of a jam. Too cool!

[fini]

Jeff, that's a pretty cool clip. I like how when you pause or stop it, there's an echo...

[Jeff Matthews]

Jeff, that's a pretty cool clip. I like how when you pause or stop it, there's an echo...

Yeah. I'm amazed at how faithful the midi reproduction is. This is not easy music to analyze and reproduce.

My ringtone starts just prior to the midpoint - just after the "military-like" snare cadence, where the keyboard sort-of "swirls" and takes off in the big lead.

[kaiser SET say]

Why People Buy Cables.

1. The joy of consumption. No matter the hobby, people like obtaining things for their pleasure. Rock hounds buy rocks, record collectors buy records, and stereo nuts buy stereo, uh, nuts.
2. Cables are a scalable purchase. This is crucial to the success of cable companies. No matter what amount of money you have, they have a cable for that amount of money! Genius. You have $10? They have a cable for that problem. You have $500? They have a cable for that one too! This operates just like a jewelry store. When you go into a jewelry store, the second question asked is, "How much did you want to spend?" Stones, like cables, are graded by price from a few dollars to a few million. They all look about the same! Just plug in wherever your pain stops!
3. Requires no tools. Cables are a change which require no tools, or special knowledge to install. If you think of it as an "upgrade" you are doing this with no knowledge needed.
4. They look fantastic! Go ahead, just compare the coiled up wimpy red and white patch cord that came with your $25 CDP to the sexy snakey gold-looking, hefty, manly "hoses" (yes, you got that right) that you can "plug into" (and yes, that one too) your big hefty, manly power amp for a mere $100 or so! What's not to like?
5. You can hide it from the wife. Is any explanation really necessary for this one?

THX Mark, guilty on all charges but I'm OK with that and since it is hurting no one else we should still be good right[] LOL

THX Don, using the Canare on my digital stuff and at $25.00 a pop it's a great little cable[]

[thebes]

Why Cable Companies Might Be Are Good for the Audio Hobby

1. They spread the cheese around. Cables are very profitable. These companies are some of the biggest advertisers in hobby magazines, and web sites. If there are no magazines, there will be no hobby - period. Magazines give exposure to all the little guys (like me!) who can't afford and wouldn't buy ads. Just pick up a copy of Stereophile and count the ad pages by cable companies. They also support trade events like crazy. Ya gotta have money circulating in your industry aka hobby to keep it alive.

Gouge the public and you should be considered a patriot. Is that your take on cables? Former spokesman for a defense contractor?

And to think I honored you so with the following statement:

I’m sorry, monster wire does not rise to the level of a
Williamson, Hafler or Deneen.

First I'm acussed of being a Luddite and now you are trying to sell me cheese! Harummph!

But onto more important matters. Do you, or do you not agree with Don's statement:

To put it simply, the wavelength of audio
frequencies are too long relative to the typical wire lengths found in most
home audio systems to be affected by the cable.

[oldtimer]

" Well, you're just an old geezer, man! How many ring tones have you purchased this past month? How many cell phone MP3 downloads? If less than 20, you are in serious GEEZER territory! "

Hey!

I resemble that remark!

Tom

Ha! I have the BEST ringtone ever! http://web.agria.hu/kepenu/elp/brainsal/karne93.mid

I took and clipped off a part where it is in the middle of a jam. Too cool!

Holy hand grenades Jeff I sincerely hope Emmo hasn't heard that. I've also heard the intro keyboard solo to "Light My Fire" as a ringtone---nearly hit the floor laughing.

[Mallette]

As the the thread, Thebes has harrumphed. End of story.

As to geezers, my ring tone is a bell, like a telephone. Completely unique and nobody else uses it.

Dave

[Boxx]

The neverending story....

[fini]

I predict within the next three pages of this thread that the argument will shift completely over to whether or not breast implants are a luxury. Thanks, Mark.

[Mallette]

I predict within the next three pages of this thread that the argument will shift completely over to whether or not breast implants are a luxury. Thanks, Mark.

Wrong, fini. It'll be NAZI's!

Dave

[Don Richard]

Well, for starters go study Stu Hegeman's work in wide band amplifiers. 50 years ago when everyone (Uh, Gordon Gow) said amplifers need only pass the spectrum of audible tones (20Hz to 20KHz) Stu came out with the first ultra wideband gear hitting around 500Khz at the top, and 5Hz or so at the bottom. Gee whiz, I think his ideas for the "Citation" brand did pretty well at impressing people sonically didn't it? Just go back and recall how the hot new Citation gear blew the old stodgy McIntosh right off the dang shelf (and still does to this day!). Ask why. Go learn why Bob Carver thought Hegeman was the greatest audio genius he ever met. Then you'll know.

From The Dope From Hope, Vol.13, No.3, PWK wrote:

"Several years ago, Macintosh fielded a show where it was demonstrared that extending the frequency response of an amplifier beyond 20,000 Hz produced no audible change. This is as it should be expected to be: if the microphone, recording, transmission media, loudspeaker, and human ear are bandpass devices limited (optimistically) to a range of 30-20,000 Hz, isn't it ridiculous to demand one link of that chain to transmit zero to 100,000 Hz?"

He also described a test with a 30 Hz to 20,000 Hz filter inserted on such a wideband amp and it made no audible change.

But I'll bet that wideband amp would output a real nice 10 kHz square wave. It's a shame that humans cannot hear the difference between a 10 kHz square wave and a 10 kHz sine wave. I, for one, am interested only in sounds that I can hear.

[ClaudeJ1]

I've always made a point to insist on 100% copper. I know, it's extravagant, but well worth it.

Dave

I almost fell off the chair laughing, very true !

I remember asking PWK, when I visited him in Hope (1985) why they were using Monster Cable for the latest Khorns (mine were 1977's). He said he though it was a waste of good copper just to drive a 30 gauge voice coil on a woofer, but their Marketing VP, Woody Jackson, thought they would sell better that way..............hmmmmmm.

[ClaudeJ1]

Good reading, but none of this explains why my Wal-mart cables sound as good as a $250 dollar cable named after a snake or something like that?

Of course it explains it. The conclusion is that cables can sound different, not that each does. You have two cables that to your ear sound identical. To someone else, with a different system, they may sound different. Notice we haven't been arguing over which sounds better. That's a whole different can of snakes.

Since the electro acousic efficiency of compression drivers and horns is typically 10-24 decibels more efficient than direct radiators (requiring 10 to 200 times LESS power), this may ease up on the amount of copper utilized to trasfer the energy. 16 AWG zip cord has always worked for me. I used fat monster cable for my LaScalas back in my DJ days for MECHANICAL strength, and NOT for electrons. There was no difference is sound between monster cable (about 8 AWG vs. 16) in my LaScalas with a 120 wpc amp. I did use the Monster cables to jump start a friend's truck once though, after a gig, but that is beyond the scope of this text..................

[ClaudeJ1]

There is a ton of engineering information on cable design and construction, involving capacitance,inductance and resistance. These are the main parameters affecting audio range cables. There is more to consider, however - skin effect, SCIN, parallel conductance, standing wave ratio and phase velocity (now we are starting to sound like a snake-oil cable ad). However, these factors affect higher than audio frequencies. To put it simply, the wavelength of audio frequencies are too long relative to the typical wire lengths found in most home audio systems to be affected by the cable. For longer cable runs in some home systems, and in commercial systems, there can be high frequency loss. The cure (in commercial systems) is to equalize the system. These rolloffs are minimum phase, so EQing the frequency response will also correct any phase anomalies. It's that simple.

Digital audio transmission lines are a different matter. The frequencies are much higher and the data is in the form of square wave digital pulses. This causes stuff like standing wave ratio and characteristic impedance to become important. If you are sending hi-rez audio to your DAC, poorly designed cables may cause problems such as square wave distortion and amplitude losses. Make certain that the cable you get for that purpose are designed for digital signals, as regular analog interconnects could create issues.

This is the best post of all so far. Like the great Carver Mead said: "The future of Digital is Analog"

[thebes]

No Mark, I'm not pulling your leg, but please believe that I am not being disrespectful or mean-spirited. It's just that your logic that high priced cables are needed to keep the audio industry alive is a bit too tortured for me.

Look, the ultra high end cables are indeed a luxury item and I could care less what fools with great gobs of money do. But I suspect, for a guy like the good Captain Zark who started this thread, the $250 he laid out was husbanded hobby savings expended in hopes of a sonic improvement to his system. Multiply that experience by the millions of people who buy, say, $70 Monster rca cables and the level of theft compounds rapidly.

Mark, you could probably have sold the Merlin for twice what you did, but I suspect you would have had a hard time sleeping at night. I kinda doubt a cable company executive sleeps badly.

Guys like the Captain are who we should Both be looking out for, with discussions like this and when asked/answered. After all, as you have demonstrated, cables are not just a luxury item. After all you can't connect A to C with out B, the cable. Please be certain many of our visitors here are doing a form of market research before they buy, and we should help them along the way. I know for sure I've saved a lot of money by listening to what others here say, and with tons of wonderful free advice, I do believe I've built a credible system of my own. (Although I suspect that if I only could afford the proper cable, it would be perfect)

As to the price of Coca-Cola, should we ever meet I will splurge and buy you a six pack. We can settle in, get the perfect sugar, (er, corn syrup) and caffeine high and discuss how to make a proper pair of cables with truly ridiculous pricing (er, I mean, scrupulously fair pricing) which will provide no lasting benefit to our customers (er, will transport purchasers into sonic nirvana) and guarantee us a place amongst history's robber barons (er, nice guys who just happened to finish first).

[Jeff Matthews]

Look, the ultra high end cables are indeed a luxury item and I could care less what fools with great gobs of money do. But I suspect, for a guy like the good Captain Zark who started this thread, the $250 he laid out was husbanded hobby savings expended in hopes of a sonic improvement to his system. Multiply that experience by the millions of people who buy, say, $70 Monster rca cables and the level of theft compounds rapidly.

Thebes, you missed Mark's main point. Guys like the Captain were going to spend that money no matter what. You can try to talk sense into people about why something might not be worth it, but the fact is that they often have predispositions to cast aside the negative reviews and go with their gut feelings and what makes them feel good.

If that wasn't the case, Rolex would not exist. I do not, however, pretend that Rolex is committing theft against people who are led to think it really is a superior time-keeping device.

People buy Rolex because they want to, despite the seeming evidence that it's a dumb buy. So, what? To them, it is not dumb. If if they think it is worthwhile, more power to them. It's their choice. Should I pity them? Should I hold disdain for Rolex? Why? They make a product that a certain set of people feel good about spending gobs of money on. That is the beauty of human individuality.

I can assure you, people like the Captain will go on buying cables, not because they are hapless suckers, but because it fills some psychological need.

It's the same reason I daily see big, monster 4WD trucks in the city that will never, ever leave the pavement. Logic would dictate not to buy a 4WD vehicle if you're a city-slicker, but logic is only a small component which guides consumption choices. That is, of course, if you think of logic as just mechanical utility. There are other forms of logic -such as, "This monster truck will land me a hot babe." ;-)

[Mallette]

Interesting. I own a Citation. It's on a shelf in the garage. Sounds like all SS amps to me...

But, of course, I may be deaf.

"Wildly successful" is neither science nor sense. I make my judgements by my ears, nothing else.

As to whether it's ethical to mark up a few bucks of wire and such to 100 times its value and make absurd claims, I certainly have my opinion about that but I'll just leave it at "I'm not buying it." I will certainly go so far to say that it makes audiophiles something of a laughingstock.

Personally, I prefer to bring non-audio types into my listening room, blow their heads off with accurate, awesome music, then shock them by telling them they have more money in their flat as pancake, won't fool my cat TV sets.

Dave