is it quality or..........

[quadklipsh]

no thats rupees

[Islander]

You have to go out of your way to build a modern Class D amp that is not accurate and musical. It's just an algorithm, basically a computer program. If you add something, it doesn't help. If you take away something, it doesn't work.

OK, some techies here could quibble with those statements, but they are generally true for those of us not in the engineering profession or playing engineers on TV.

With tube or SS designs, there are almost infinite ways to design the circuits. Not so much with Class D.

Even if Class D designs have as much commonality between them as that, it seems to run against common sense for a $100 Class D amp to sound as good as a, say, $1000-$5000 Class D amp, with its better parts and hopefully much more refined circuitry.

In any case, I'm using a pair of Class D amps to power my JubScalas and the ability to hear into the music, even clearly hearing the musicians at the back of the soundstage, makes for very pleasant listening.

[Mallette]

Even if Class D designs have as much commonality between them as that, it seems to run against common sense for a $100 Class D amp to sound as good as a, say, $1000-$5000 Class D amp, with its better parts and hopefully much more refined circuitry.

Only if one allows ones quality scale to be determined by dollars instead of science and personal perception. It is, in fact, a struggle for many. For decades audiophiles have taken some degree of pride in the dollar value of their systems. In my case, THAT is what is counter-intuitive and downright foolish.

I've been exposed to countless $$$$$ speakers, amps, and other equipment that left me cold.

There are a few remaining absolutes in audio. Speakers being the chief...build quality and precision remain king there. In turntables, precision can be achieved with low build quality and you can get 98% of the sound quaility (not a scientific measurement...pure personal observation) from 300.00 spent with Music Hall you get with 60k spent on a Rockport.

Depends on what the audiophile is after. If it is accurate sound, I can put together a killer system for 500.00 or less using vintage gear and select modern bits. If it is a personal statement, there are no limits.

Dave

[muel]

In turntables, precision can be achieved with low build quality and you can get 98% of the sound quaility (not a scientific measurement...pure personal observation) from 300.00 spent with Music Hall you get with 60k spent on a Rockport.

Depends on what the audiophile is after. If it is accurate sound, I can put together a killer system for 500.00 or less using vintage gear and select modern bits. If it is a personal statement, there are no limits.

Dave

You have me intrigued, Dave! What would be entailed on your 300.00 Music Hall build?

I don't have much more real world experience with TT than my parents Magnavox changer when I was little and the full auto Denon I bought with busboy money while in college. I'm a little intimidated by the complicated setups. I have a Shure M97xE that I still haven't tried on the Denon... I don't want to mess anything up since it doesn't have any antiskate and the arm is electronically controlled.

[jjennings2510]

Don't let their looks deceive you. I had a Sonic Impact T-amp with my Forte II fronts. It was powered by AA batteries!! When you hear how loud and clean your speakers can sound powered by batteries it really opens up your thinking about amplifiers.

That statement just blew my mind. Your Forte IIs were handled by an amp that was powered by batteries?? And it was loud???!!! And clear???!! Mind blowing. The reviews say it sounds like a tube. I've never heard a tube amp but I think imma have to check out the 50wpc T-amp and see how it sounds with my 25s.....I was looking at the Butler Audio tubes for them but hey I have to try this first. Thanks to you guys I learn more and more stuff everyday. But the battery powered amp is mind blowing. I would expect great sound with headphones but not with Forte IIs......amazing []

[wuzzzer]

It was pretty incredible. The amp fits in your hand and weighs practically nothing. I think the batteries weigh more than the amp does. My next project after next year is to look into the higher powered T-amps like you mentioned. Parts Express has a nice amp that's currently out of stock but a bit more powerful than the Sonic Impact T-amp that I used to have.

[jjennings2510]

Yes I saw that. I may go ahead and order it tonight though! It says it should be back in stock 11/24 so unfortunately I'll have to wait over a month. But that'll give me a chance to get a receiver or a processor with preouts. And $99 isn't bad. If for some reason I don't like it, its not like I spent hundreds on it. Heck I just purchased another Roku box for the same price. $99.....if I would have seen this post a few hours earlier then I would have waited on the Roku since I already have one and went ahead and spent that money on this amp. Nonetheless its no rush because it won't be in stock soon anyway and it doesn't say anything about a waiting list if you go ahead and order so.......I'll see if I can find another site with that model even though its highly unlikely. The only ones I see are the small ones with 10wpc. The 50wpc is rare apparently.......but please believe, when I get one I will have a full report on how well they drove my 25s in a bedroom environment.

[Myhamish]

Give the digital class T amps a try.

ditto to Wuzzer - try a t amp - you'll need a sub though. Slainte. Hamish

[Mallette]

In turntables, precision can be achieved with low build quality and you can get 98% of the sound quaility (not a scientific measurement...pure personal observation) from 300.00 spent with Music Hall you get with 60k spent on a Rockport.

Depends on what the audiophile is after. If it is accurate sound, I can put together a killer system for 500.00 or less using vintage gear and select modern bits. If it is a personal statement, there are no limits.

Dave

You have me intrigued, Dave! What would be entailed on your 300.00 Music Hall build?

I don't have much more real world experience with TT than my parents Magnavox changer when I was little and the full auto Denon I bought with busboy money while in college. I'm a little intimidated by the complicated setups. I have a Shure M97xE that I still haven't tried on the Denon... I don't want to mess anything up since it doesn't have any antiskate and the arm is electronically controlled.

Apologies. I forgot about this thread until today...

The build isn't going to be robust, but the sound quality will be within a couple of percent (whatever that means...) of anything. One of my favorite 'tables of all time was the Stanton Gyropoise of the late 70's. Built in 681EEE (unitized with the arm) and the whole thing backed out of there. The table was suspended on opposing magnets so it floated. The highest build quality in the thing was the spindle. Very delicate, and 99.00.

The peformance was outstanding by any standards.

The first 97% (again, meaningless, but one has to attempt to communicate) of vinyl playback isn't rocket science and is well within the range of these 'tables. The rest is build quality and very incremental improvements in tracking and such.

Of course, 'table fanitics are going to SQUEAL at those statements, but for the vast majority of audiophiles these 'tables are just fine and will blow you away. Now, after a while you may wind up gazing at 12" arms, exotic cartridges, massive motors, vacuum tube phono preamps with art deco tube cages, etc and I can't help you with that...

But you can't go too wrong with these as starters, especially those that come plug and play with a matched cartridge.

Dave

[Hifi jim]

The build isn't going to be robust, but the sound quality will be within a couple of percent (whatever that means...) of anything. One of my favorite 'tables of all time was the Stanton Gyropoise of the late 70's. Built in 681EEE (unitized with the arm) and the whole thing backed out of there. The table was suspended on opposing magnets so it floated. The highest build quality in the thing was the spindle. Very delicate, and 99.00.

I see what you are driving at Dave (diminishing returns, a familiar theme in audio), but the Stanton Gyropoise?... really?? From the two examples I've seen and all the info I've read about these, they had the worst build quality and reputation of the time. Now, I've never heard one but after your brief synopsis maybe I've been overlooking a good bargain table. However, in my house Pioneer tables have always been a favorite. Reliable, excellent build quality (the finest motors and some real nice arms too), and sound quality on par with more expensive tables. But back to the original question... Does all the high end glitz make a better sounding table? I don't know first hand, but I'm pretty sure the Pioneer P3 Statement TT is a good bit better than any of the Pioneer tables I have. The bigger question is, will it sound 10x better than the table that costs 10x less? Probably not. Diminishing returns...

[Mallette]

From the two examples I've seen and all the info I've read about these, they had the worst build quality and reputation of the time.

Sheesh, I wouldn't take one on a bet unless it was NIB. Your statement is correct. You had to be very, very careful as they were very, very delicate.

However, I was listening last night to a reel to reel of Dark Side I made using that table and it's (IMHO) as good as any I've ever heard, and way better than any of the CD releases.

Frankly, I'd be amazed that any survived intact.

I have no experience other than what others have said about the Music Hall low ends, but I suspect they are at least slightly more robust and reasonably certain they'd sound pretty darn good.

Dave

[SkyDover]

I've played around with some of the class T and class D amps. They sound good and can reveal some of the detail and nice highs that some of the better amps can do, but they sound flat compared to the high quality ClassA/B amps. I've played around with the Sonic T, Onkyo A9555, and Panasonic XR-SA models, no question you are getting all the detail but the sound is like someone popped the air out of the music and less powerful sounding. Simple test of just taking a Rotel RB-1080 and a Panasonic XR-SA model and play them, switching between them with the same source playing and you can hear the difference. The Rotel can fill a larger room much easier, sounds full and rounded, like air is in it like a balloon, while the Panasonic sounds flat, less rounded sounding and less powerful sounding. The Onkyo A9555 sounds more powerful than the Panasonic's but still flat sounding instead of the full rounded airy sound of the Rotel. Comparing quickly sums up the brain what you are hearing and what each can and can't do. I like the more rounded sound of the Class A/B amps. The class T and class D are amazing for what they can do for their size though.

[Mallette]

The class T and class D are amazing for what they can do for their size though.

The Rotel can fill a larger room much easier, sounds full and rounded, like air is in it like a balloon, while the Panasonic sounds flat, less rounded sounding and less powerful sounding.

Hmm...very difficult to quantify those statements. Not contesting your ears, but those words don't really say much to me. I run a pany SA in both my main systems, in once case driving Klipschorns, a Cornwall, and a pair of Frazier MK IV's in a small (15X13) room. If the room got any more filled there would be no room for me! In the other case, it's a larger (18X18 or so) space, but it's an open room overlooking the entry way that also serves as the family TV room. In there are a pair of Frazier Elevens, 275 lbs and the size of a small refrigerator, and Frazier Mk V's. In this case, the SA has plenty of room to spill out of the room and all over the house at 2/3 level or so and nothing flat about it. If I did your test I'd probably hear precisely what I heard from the first SS amp I ever heard...a clinical sound like a strong key light revealing everything but doing so in a manner that tires me. It took me 20 years before I heard tubes again and that "natural" clean sound that is still accurate, but not so taxing. I find the digital amps dead in the middle of those experiences. All the detail without the "brute force" sound of power transistors.

Okies, my description of a personal metaphysical experience is no better than yours [:$], but they are the only way we have to communicate in this abstraction layer we call a forum.

I'd add something a little more quantifiable: The smallest T amps, though capable of driving efficient speakers to high levels, suffer when presented with a pipe organ or pianos lowest registers just like the little SET amps that sound so delicious on most other things. If one's listening habits run to jazz or string quartets, you're in luck and will never miss it.

OTOH, the bigger digitals like the Pany receivers, have plenty of power for those purposes (IMHO).

Dave

[jacksonbart]

I spent $20,000 on this musical wombat. The system has never sounded better, but the bassturd keeps pooping all over the room. To be honest I never did an A to B comparision via my ears. Its all mental and odor based conclusions.

[jacksonbart]

Stop looking at its nether regions (your sick), its a girl. The Boy Wombats are too cold sounding.

[Dennie]

I was going to go with the Musical Wombat, but after doing some research, on this forum and others, I've found that Musical Farretts are much better, cost less to feed and use a litter box! [Y]

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS5JU_7_QrrkB3HbSE8SCTCCJD5ATAWGmcmOciTxXnhXm6vf8Y&t=1&usg=__cpLapne_ko0wUpI_x7_jlTwetE4=

After a little more research and some of the old timers helping me out. (Thanks Fini!) I now use one Farrett per channel and the sound is.....well, Incredible!

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT-_bfFhuEsGts3jIWlGwF8o434cFhIVwrsYyeA8uloxQ-7oF0&t=1&usg=__iWwWsZNDw453XoGqXhIfAvyQ2x8=

This can be downloaded in advance-------> http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQIPXrA3jXBwKgk7msEf5FsiBMniMz5FZ3I5hGx-4aS4wIXKcM&t=1&usg=__WHrga3jVG-yk-LHlX5Ug9d70jCQ=

I hope this helps,

Dennie[]

[SkyDover]

Mallette, actually the Rotel is smoother sounding with it's rounding out the highs, the Panasonic isn't as much and a little harder on my ears but not by too much. Flat vs more air in each note, again you won't understand until you compare the two, then you'll hear the difference, sounds flat on the Panasonic and more air and heft to each note on Rotel. I've easily listened to the Panasonic's trying to figure out the differences and harder to do until I compared them side by side, and all things become very easy to hear what the big differences are. I don't find any problems with high quality SS amps as you say you do, and not a tube guy, I've already tried that a couple of years ago. My liking is more very high quality SS amps.

Your misunderstanding me, the Panasonic can fill a room but in a lighter way. You won't really understand what I'm saying unless you try it yourself. I've used the Panasonic on my Klipschorn's and it's easy to hear what I'm talking about. My intentions were just to post my findings, not to upset or insult anyone's usage, it's just my findings and my honest opinion. You can read on the Rotel forums how many feel that the RB-1090 is still better than the RB-1092 being Class A/B vs Class D and still feel the RB-1090 still is more fuller, more 3D, and airy sounding, if you read those maybe you can understand what I'm trying to say here, reading those may help explain it for those who have expressed this better than I can or attempt to.

It's also very possible that you much more prefer your Panasonic

sound, if so, that's fantastic, hang on to it because Panasonic no longer makes these anymore, they've decided to not compete with the HT amps anymore.

I never said the Panasonic didn't sound good, I still have a couple of them around but I hardly listen to them because I do have better sounding amps that I like better. I still think the Panasonic is a great little amp for what it can do, it's features, and size.

When you have the chance to try many different things, you quickly learn and hear the differences and that's the best way to get an idea what the differences actually are.

[Mallette]

My intentions were just to post my findings, not to upset or insult anyone's usage, it's just my findings and my honest opinion.

Understood. That's why I did not dispute what you heard. I don't dispute what anybody hears...that's insane.

My belief is that all of us learn to hear various things. In my case, it's about the source material. I only hear things in systems when I know the source material well enough to determine it's being degraded somehow by the playback chain.

I've had many fine ears in my home who've much prefered the sound of my ST-80 to the Pany. Others, not so much.

Dave

[oldmako]

Interesting thread and interesting amp.

I'm currently running a sanyo double DIN car unit on my boat, with an el cheapo (noisy) yard sale amp. The dynamic duo are powering my Klipsch KSB 1.1s. Due to it being a marine application there is a ton of remnant noise in the audio due to interference from engine ignition, crappy old wiring, other electronics etc etc etc.

I picked the sanyo because it has an aux input for my ipod, and it was cheap on ebay. I hate to put pricy electrics on a boat that lives in salt water, since most everything just gets tosssed every few years anyway.

This little amp also has an 1/8 input, so it would work with the ipod. But the real kicker is that by using batteries, I could eliminate all the noise from both the current lousy components AND the boats electrical system. The only down side is the way it's mounted and battery access, but I can work around that somehow.

I'd rather use the larger one (50 wpc) but it's 24V. I'll do a search and look for others.

Any guesses how long it would operate with regular old batteries? Or, is there something unique about the design of this amp which would make it less susceptible to passing on the noise from the boats elec system if it was wired directly?

THANKS!

[oldmako]

OK, I was so jonesed about this concept I got to thinking. I had purchased a little cheezy amp last year on ebay, because it was insanely cheap. But when it showed up it seemed like a toy. Barely larger than a pack of smokes, and light as a feather. I didn't know a T-Amp from a T-Square.

Then I read this thread, and went and dug out the toy. I have attached an image, hopefully it will take as my PC skills are extrordinary(ily bad).

First, I hooked it up to my Fortes in my bedroom / house o bondage. HOLY SMOKES. Then it took it downstairs and hooked it up to my CF3s. HOLY SMOKESSQUARED. I had no idea that this tiny, nearly featherweight box could make such noise! I turned it up to max with no input and heard...nothing.

To be fair, it suffers a bit a very loud volumes, particularly on the less effecient CFs (and in a very large room). The bass is reasonable at low volume, but tends to get boomy as its cranked. Careful attention to the tone controls was necessary as volume increased. But, talk about bang for no bucks. I can't wait to schlep over to the yot and get it wired up. Insane! As Pete said in "Oh Brother, Where Art Thou"......"That don't make NO sense!!"

Happily confused and fairly stupid (but with a nice glass of mash).