Which camp are you in ??? And why are you there ???

[dtel]

Now you guys have really done it. A friend, who has been following all of this, just called to say that he wants me to design and build him a push-pull triode amp to use with his K-horns. Maybe I should move to Alaska..............................

[]

Design him one that starts out SET then shifts gears to others designs and ends in SS, OK it might be easier to move to Alaska . [H]

[dtel]

JB I like these.........[:|]

http://www.flairhair.com/

[NOSValves]

Now you guys have really done it. A friend, who has been following all of this, just called to say that he wants me to design and build him a push-pull triode amp to use with his K-horns. Maybe I should move to Alaska..............................

Well there you go... by the way we all want a commision []

PS: apply a touch of feedback in the right place so the amp has some what flat frequency response, low distortion and some bandwidth if he is a SET lover he is sure to hate it []

[sebrof]

Well I personally think the SET crowd need to just come to the realization that what it is they enjoy about there SET amps is the type of distortion they produce. They enjoyed the more laid back euphoric presentation from the added harmonics... although they will be hard pressed to go to a live jazz, vocal or acoustic event and reproduce what they hear in the listening room but that's just fine with me. If you enjoy it that's what this is all about anyway.

But to try to state they are technically better in any way is just not the proper or reasonable approach. Because they are not. Heck I personally would use a quality SS amp first...Did I just say that ^%$^&_)(

I think you guys need to have some stylish Polo shirts made with "I love my SET amp and its 5% distortion It sounds like nothing else!"

Sorry folks I always get carried away in these crazy threads.

FWIW, and at the risk of wearing out my welcome (I usually do not get carried away in these crazy threads but clearly have in this one), I don't disagree with what you wrote, maybe with an exception or 2.

I see enough live music to know that I do not want that in my listening room. I also believe that many people think they want it but really don't.

I don't much care if it is the distortion that makes the SET so appealing to me or something else. There is a huge amount that we do not know about how we process sound and music that the distortion may have nothing to do with it.

A Polo shirt with that logo could never be stylish.

For reference, Craig because you mentioned something about expensive SET vs. entry level PP in an earlier post: My main amp is a 2A3 SET that I built, a clone of the Western Electric 91A (6C6 drivers in mine). I have less than $1,000 in it. The other SE amps I have are EL84, 807, and 6L6-based, all built by me and cost less than $600. This is actually another benefit of SET, that it's pretty cheap and easy to get a schematic, source the parts, and solder away (or get a simple kit). A little harder to do that with more complex circuits. The PP amps I've heard (in this context) included Jolida, Shanling, and ARC, although the ARC alone cost more than my current system in total. SS included Primare and Yamaha. So as far as pricepoint I believe I'm comparing apples to apples.

My mission here (not sure why I chose to accept it, and I'd be fine if all my posts would self destruct in 30 seconds) was to just offer the point of view that the much maligned SET amplifier is not a glaring example of mis-engineering if used in the propper environment. If I haven't accomplished that by now I never will, so over and out and thanks.

[DrWho]

I see enough live music to know that I do not want that in my listening room. I also believe that many people think they want it but really don't.

You just haven't experienced live music with a good sound engineer behind quality equipment. I'd say 99% of live music sounds horrible, but it doesn't need to sound bad.

There is a huge amount that we do not know about how we process sound and music that the distortion may have nothing to do with it.

However, we can quantitify the behavior of the air molecules in the room, so we can know what is different about two signals arriving at the listener's ears...how that difference is perceived is a completely different topic than quantifying what those differences are...

[NOSValves]

I see enough live music to know that I do not want that in my listening room. I also believe that many people think they want it but really don't.

This in a nut shell tells all..... I'd take it one step further and say you really don't want whats on the source media in your listening room either. But hey like I said before..... this hobby is about pleasing one self not others. So do what makes you happy.

PS The Polo shirt was a joke. Lighten up!!

One more thing that amp you have a thousand dollars into building yourself would most likely retail by a reputable well established SET audio manufactuer for $4000 or more..... So again like most SET guys you're not really comparing apples to apples... two of the PP tube amps you mentioned are crap from China hardly anything more then entry level stuff although the shanling stuff looks real cool. Only exception would be the ARC and there products have never been renowned for being well mated to effeceint speakers.

[LarryC]

From every thing I have read just about every tube amp and Pre-amp has a somewhat different sound, and even just switching tubes can change the sound.

I think that's true. Also true of interconnects, speaker wire, and, yes, (gasp) power cords! The truth is that many of these differences are complex and over-loaded with ambiguities, and may combine into very different sounds. Clear unanimous opinion is very unlikely.

Great synergism is what everybody really wants, IMO. When certain sound sources, electronics, power cords, speaker wire and speakers all pull together to make music that pleases and sounds and affects the listener like music should! Not all approaches work, unfortunately, in spite of excellent, well-considered efforts.

If you and Christy get out this way, you might be able to hear Garymd's well-synergized system (tube Blueberry Xtreme and VRD's, K-horns, Basis/Transfig 'table, arm and cart) and selected power cord and preamp-amp interconnects. My system is quite different in electronics (his = P-P amp; mine an output transformerless/OTL), and so a very different sound. Food for thought, especially the JM pre and VRDs.

They also have a lotta interesting buildings in downtown DC...

[SSnyder]

For those of us more technically minded, what are the reasons on paper for the advantages to SET? I understand what people are referring to about the smooth mids of SET, so I'm curious what the SET crowd would say is the reason for that sound. The natural progression would be to then implement that advantage into other topologies. Have any of you SET guys played with any Class D amps?

3 things come to mind:

1. No feedback (usually). This eliminates the type of distortion caused by the feedback loop lagging the output.

Wrong properly implemented feedback lowers distortion.... look at the distortion specs of your SET amps usually on the 5%+ range is the norm... then look at the distortion spec of any well thought of PP amp... they handily trouce any SET amp in that regard! The bad rep on feedback was from engineeers applying way to much to get the distortion, bandwidth and dampening factor as high as possible during the Spec/power wars. Careful small amounts of properly tuned feedback is not an huge issue. Like everything trade off are made. But your blanket assessments are just not true.

Oh and many zero feedback PP designs exists and have for many years. I personally like just a bit of feedback.

No, I was correct. I said it lowered a certain type of distortion, not total distortion. And I agree that it should not be a huge issue if implemented, and pretty much said as much after #3.

Ummm no you're still wrong or at least painting with broad strokes. Since the dostortion you are referring to is pretty much so small in a properly designed and implemented amplifer utilizing feedback it is really not measurable to any real world degree. "I've never heard a listener say "Hey I just heard that feedback lag" This is just one of those nit picky arguements the SET camp love to use to pump there chest about. I've seen it a many times.....an amp designer will spend endless amounts of time tinkering with a zero feedback amplifier and get it sounding wonderful. Then sloppily take this design that is optimized for zero feedback and throws feedback in it and says "look it sounds like garbage". Heck some of them even implement a switch to help sell there story. It would take one hell of a switch to achieve the changes required for both design optimizations.

The fact of the matter is its easy to measure 5% distortion or more in most zero feedback SET designs. In a well designed PP amp you can take every imaginable type of distortion and add them up and not reach 1% at full power and usually in the nearly unmeasureable range at 1-5 watts...

This are not opinions these are absolute facts although the numbers will vary from one designers amp to the next....

2. Simple circuitry. There are a total of 7 components between my CDP and my ear (selector, volume, driver, coupling cap, power tube, OPT, single speaker driver).

Simple is fine until its too simple to do the job.....

When my SET gets too simple I'll let you know.

Hey no one is saying you do not love your SET amps and no one is saying you should change....see me earlier panties in a twist comment. You like what you hear and that is fine with me but don;t be dillusional about what it is you're hearing.

3. Class A. This eliminates switching distortion found in Push Pull designs.

CLASS A is not a SET only thing Class A can be achieved with PP designs no problem at all. VRD's for instant have around 15 solid class A watts before they start to reach into the A/B mode. Just about every PP amplifier has some amount of Class A operation.

OK, but the vast majority of PP amps in the world today are class A/AB (95%+ I would guess), so when someone mentions PP it is safe to assume they are referring to a A/AB amplifier.

You know this is one of the huge problems I have with the SET camp... They will spend thousands of dollers and SET amps then compare it to an entry level PP design... spend dallor for doller and see where you get you may still love SET but I think your opinion opf PP will change. In reality If you want the pinacle of PP because of its more complex to properly implement you should have to spend more then you would on a SET amp. This is almost never the case.

If a PP amp has say 15 watts of class A operation the cold hard facts are that with our speakers the user will rarely reach outside that class A window of operation and at a very low distortion figure to boot.

None of these are possible (I don't believe) or at least not practicle, in a PP design. And I don't believe any of these are huge issues with topologies that have to deal with them.

See above wrong.... oh and many very simple PP designs exist. Problem is PP is hard to do right in an overly simple manor

I currently have SET with either single driver speakers or KHorns. That is not to say that SET is the only way, or even necessarily the best way, to make a good amplifier. SET is probaly not quite as good as you would think if you read what's on the internet, and is certainly no where nearly as bad as you would think if you read through this thread. It does simpler music and vocals exceptionally well, and it plays the classic rock I listen to well and as loud as I want (95 db+).

If you primarialy listen to loud music, or if your room is large, or if what SET offers does not turn you on, I would suggest another type of amp. But if you're like me and mostly use you rig to relax and chill at the end or beginning of the day, SET may just work for you.

See my comments above in bold

My bold comments below your bold comments

See my replies in Bold Italic.

Why would midrange it better in LO powre then HIGH power maybe because bass (mainly lack therof then not in the way of midrange>>>SO>>>notice its' more prominanse.

My comment undelined.

[sebrof]

I see enough live music to know that I do not want that in my listening room. I also believe that many people think they want it but really don't.

This in a nut shell tells all..... I'd take it one step further and say you really don't want whats on the source media in your listening room either. But hey like I said before..... this hobby is about pleasing one self not others. So do what makes you happy.

PS The Polo shirt was a joke. Lighten up!!

Most live music I hear sounds bad. I saw Big Head Todd and the Monsters last weekend. He put on a great show (I knew his music but wasn't aware he was such a great act), and the music was loud. It was good for that night, that event, where you're jamming and yelling and having a great time. It neeed to sound like that to get people rocking. But I don't want that in my room. You do? You walk out of a club or venue and say "I wish my system sounded like that" or "I'm glad my system sounds like that." Really? Maybe if you frequent the symphony, or some exceptional venues or something, sure. Otherwise I just don't see it.

As far as my amp being $4K - I guess I didn't give it the credit it deserves. I figured $2K or so. Maybe I'm not comparing apples after all. I mentioned the Jolida and Shanling stuff so we would have that point of reference. I think it's decent stuff, but honestly can't compare to anythnig besides the ARC which I never owned. I know you've heard mor PP amps (and more SET for that matter) than I ever will, so there you have it. I won't call it Chinese crap for other reasons, but let's just say I pursued DIY because it was either go broke, buy something else like everything I pick up in my life that says Made in China on it, or build my own.

I realize sometimes things get misinterpreted when writing vs. talking in person, but surely you could tell I was joking about the Polo shirts, no? I guess I should have inserted a smiley. I was hoping that we could at least agree on the Polo shirts. []Unfortunately, I think at this point no matter what I write it will be taken the wrong way.

[NOSValves]

Since you obviously know how to solder and can follow a schematic. Why not spend some money slowly collecting parts and build a high quality PP design. Since you like SET try PP 2A3's or 300B designs. I think you might end up shocked at what you can accomplish. But it will take a learning curve and some tuning abilities.

Yes I want my system to sound like instruments played in the real world. No I do not need it to play loud like at a bar or concert in most cases that is a mistake of the sound engineer they tend to push the sound beyond the amplifying equipment and the venue rooms ability. I bet I rarely use more then 5 watts of the 60 watts my amps can produce (steady state).... peak power for breif micro seconds who knows....

I agree that many of the problems that happen on forums is misinterpretation....

Just about everything that comes from China has less then stellar transformers. So the output of the amplifier no matter how nicely built is compromised. I've never seen a Chinese made amp that had even remotely clean response over 10Khz... They are just plain raspy sounding in the HF region or serverly smoothed off to get rid of the raspy performance. Just like anything Cheap - High quality just do not go hand and hand. Many folks get these amps as starter tube amps and are floored at the "Tube Sound" since any tube amp will give you some of the tube thing over what your were listening too. But rarely if $ are available do they stop with those products because the glaring flaws come shinning through. At least that is my opinion of them and I can easily show anyone that owns one with my scope and function generator what the amp is doing to the signal in the HF region.

Its real easy to produce a transformer that performs well from 40hz to 10khz... it's entirely different thing to produce one that performs well from 10hz to above 20khz without a bunch of feedback and smoothing caps to clean up the flaws. This is even more true with SET transformers

[jacksonbart]

You two guys are out of control, Amy should shut this thread dowm immediatly.

[NOSValves]

Ya think? []

[Rich_Guy]

Well this one time, I was in Band Camp.

I was there because of all the hot chicks.

[sebrof]

Since you obviously know how to solder and can follow a schematic. Why not spend some money slowly collecting parts and build a high quality PP design. Since you like SET try PP 2A3's or 300B designs. I think you might end up shocked at what you can accomplish. But it will take a learning curve and some tuning abilities.

Thanks Craig. Most of the designs I have seen are EL34 or KT88, but I'll look for 2A3 or 300b. I don't have a lot of faith in my tuning abilities, so I would probably need to find a proven design though. There is a good chance that early next year I will build something, so something like ths just might be the thing.

If I do build something PP, I WILL NOT post my impressions in this thread. Let's let it die a natural death.[]

[sebrof]

You two guys are out of control, Amy should shut this thread dowm immediatly.

I think we're done.

But nobody called anybody names, nobody insulted wives or children or educational institution, political affiliation. Every argument or counter-argument was about amplifier design or music or listening...Something related to audio. Heck, we didn't even use caps lock.

[NOSValves]

Thanks Craig. Most of the designs I have seen are EL34 or KT88, but I'll look for 2A3 or 300b. I don't have a lot of faith in my tuning abilities, so I would probably need to find a proven design though. There is a good chance that early next year I will build something, so something like ths just might be the thing.

If I do build something PP, I WILL NOT post my impressions in this thread. Let's let it die a natural death.

Take a look at the SETH (I believe its called) designed by our own member Painfull Reality. My bet is this amp will give you some of the best of Triode Push Pull. But to do it right you'll have to scrape up some change for the Iron. Heck I bet at the cost you mentioned the SET amps your using could step up another level or two with better Iron unless you scored some real choice used vintage stuff.

http://www.magnequest.com/diy_lessard_2a3pp.htm

[NOSValves]

You two guys are out of control, Amy should shut this thread dowm immediatly.

I think we're done.

But nobody called anybody names, nobody insulted wives or children or educational institution, political affiliation. Every argument or counter-argument was about amplifier design or music or listening...Something related to audio. Heck, we didn't even use caps lock.

He was kidding he never posts more then ironic little one liners. I think he's shocked (Or maybe dissapointed) we didn't end up in a flame war.

[Coytee]

He was kidding he never posts more then ironic little one liners. I think he's shocked (Or maybe dissapointed) we didn't end up in a flame war.

Is this where I bring up the Jubilee's or is this the wrong camp?

[]

[mike stehr]

He was kidding he never posts more then ironic little one liners. I think he's shocked (Or maybe dissapointed) we didn't end up in a flame war.

Is this where I bring up the Jubilee's or is this the wrong camp?

No. This a SET vs PP thread, cinema speakers are off-topic...

[mike stehr]

[:$]