Which camp are you in ??? And why are you there ???

[joessportster]

This is not a ? Of SET. Vs. PP so please let's try to stay civil . My question is stemming from my oun system's progression. I have resided in the low power SET camp for quite awhile and I am a beleiver in highly effecient horns mine now are edgarhorn titans. One thing I've learned (again my oun observation, not a challange) is that low power SET is very tame and is wonderful with acoustic, jazz, and orchestral styles of music it sounds wonderful and I honestly feel like the sound is as good as it gets. BUT and this is a BIG BUT I also feel it is limited to those styles of music. I put togeather some first rate systems over the years and with all my SET systems I have always been disappointed when it comes to anything a little harder hitting. I beleive it has to do with the fact that alot more info in the music resides in the lower mids and the bass ( a well known short comming of SET amps design ) so now I'm moving more to the middle and leaning twords what is best overall for all the music I oun. (in a perfect world I would have 2 systems). So where do you reside and why ??? Joe

[tube fanatic]

The dilemma you have outlined is very common and reinforces the fact that one amplifier type can't be everything we desire for all musical types (which is why so many audiophiles go chasing the elusive "sonic nirvana" only to find themselves going in a big circle over time). In addition, there's so much variation in recording quality that the issue becomes even more compounded. The solution, for those who can afford it, is to have a SET amp, and a pentode based amp (personally, I prefer SEPs with enough negative feedback to extend the bandwidth and smooth the highs as needed, as opposed to push-pull designs). In my own installation I can switch between amplifiers to better match the characteristics to what I'm listening to. Also, psychoacoustics come into play- i.e. depending on your mood, you may prefer the laid back sound of the SET one day, but on another day you want the more punchy pentode sound with the same musical selection. So, I've never recommended two systems to my customers, but rather, two amps to cover the bases.

[Cornman]

I am currently reside in the 6c33 tube world. I know you have already been there as well Joe, & I was a little suprised to see you return to set. like you said we are all looking for the amp that will play all types of music well.

Cornman

[joessportster]

Yes I've been up and down the road a few times with every component. The 6c33c based amps are very good I've just always found them a little dry for one reason or another. The edgars are a very good all around speaker and they kinda make you want to turn up the volume a bit. Set doesn't quite cut it. Currently I have a a brenneman cavalier hooked up and it sounds nice. I have the oppertunity to pick up a hybrid amp which will be a first time listen for me. Joe

[Cut-Throat]

I am in the SET camp. I have plenty of amps. 45, 2A3, 300B, --- P.P KT88's --- I prefer the 45 SET. This may be because I rarely listen to music that has higher peaks than the mid 90 dbs. All music is fine at this level. Jazz, Rock, Acoustic mostly.

[Coytee]

so now I'm moving more to the middle and leaning twords what is best overall for all the music I oun

Perhaps before you sell any/some of your SET amps you might look into biamping. Put your SET amp on the mids/highs and a stout solid state on your woofer.

You might find it to be quite interesting. If you want to get really outlandish you could triamp. If you care to play around with that, I've got an extra EV Dx38 active that I'd be happy to send you to play around with. It's 2-in 4-out so you could biamp two 3-way speakers (letting a passive cross midrange/tweeter) or you could triamp a single speaker and compare it to your fully passive other speaker.

I'd be happy to send it to you.

[joessportster]

Coytee. I have bi-amped for years in a 2 way set up. Full range on top with oris horns, and bass lower mid bass on bottom with crown k-2. I've moved away drom the 2 way full range driver set ups (which are superb with the right music) and now use edgarhorn titans which are 3 way set up ( midbass folded horn, mids are a trax horn with 2" jbl 2441 pro compression, highs are either fostex t-90, or fane tweets,) I also use twin siesmic subs. I have been told that tri amping the system is the best way to go but it's awfully expensive to have the extra gear needed to do so. The speakers sound fine with mid level power ie... The cavalier at 10 wpc (kt88 in set) seems to have enough punch to drive the 12" folded horn. Thanks very much for the offer but I. Beleive I would rather optimize what I have ( love this forum always a helping hand extended). Joe

[Don Richard]

You need power to reproduce dynamics. Otherwise, listen to soft music at low levels. And if you are doing it through an SET amp, you will be listening to more distortion.

I don't get this SET thing. These type amps were discarded in favor of PP designs over 60 years ago because of high distortion. Nothing has changed since except the willingness of some to try something old in the hope of it sounding better somehow. It doesn't. Oh, but it sounds sweeter, they say. High levels of even order harmonics will do that, but it is distortion all the same, containing frequencies not in the original.

[Cut-Throat]

I don't get this SET thing.

I Agree!

[seti]

Joe I've watched you roll through a tremendous amount of gear and would certainly trust your take on gear or topology. I've rolled through some gear but I started with SET and I always find myself trying to get back to a system that had the wonderful qualities of a good SET system. I was very happy with my Belles George Wright Preamp and Canary Audio CA-300 SET. Perhaps I'll get back there someday.

[JBryan]

Joe, You're just following this hobby as far as it will take you. The journey IS the hobby - and you're probably coming around to the fact that there isn't a single piece of gear or system that will satisfy your every audio want. Audio Nirvana is a goal but as you've gained knowledge and experience, you certainly have concluded that the goal will always be out of reach. Also, your audio and musical tastes have naturally evolved as well as your budget and even listening skills - you do not listen to music the same way as you did a few years back.

Through your varied experiences, you have a better understanding than many and that is a reward in itself. When someone goes on about how bad SET, SEP SS, Digital or P/P amps sound, you have experiences with each and can decide whether the opinion is worthwhile or simply coming from ignorance. When one starts shutting down these avenues the adventure ebbs and the hobby becomes tedious.

10 years ago, the most heated arguments on this forum centered on which was better - tube or solid state amps. It has since progressed on to such topics as SET vs P/P; vinyl vs CD; benefits of digital amps and the ever-present wires is wires and all this coming from a forum that appreciates horn speakers that were dismissed in most audio circles as grotesquely colored and distorted antiques from a by-gone era, long since made obsolete (as I'm sure Don would agree). All healthy topics but none have ever been resolved by discussion alone and are as often as not, stymied and destroyed by ignorance creep and ill-informed bias. You've learned that you have to put the time in and experience audio for yourself and while others can guide and inform, your own curiosity will bring the greatest rewards and keep the journey fun. So have fun and for cris's sake, stop saying that this amp or that speaker will be the last one you'll ever own because as long as this hobby excites you, you will remain curious to try new gear and gain new audio experiences - and that's a wonderful thing.

[Chris A]

So where do you reside and why ??? Joe

I am bi-amping Crown D-75As (same topology as mdeneen's D-45 amp), using a Dx38 to time-align, and TADs on the top end of my two-way mains.

I used Bottlehead Paramount 300Bs (they're now sitting in my equipment room gathering dust) - these were the worst-sounding amps that I have ever used.

These two monoblocks were built by the Bottlehead folks. After about a month, one 300B tube bit the dust on its own. Saved me the excuse to excise them both from my system.

Why do these SET amps sound so poor?

Chris

[LarryC]

Joe, I also have watched you roll through a tremendous quantity and quality of gear. Although it's been very interesting, I have to say that it's frequently unclear to me why, after liking something, sometimes for a long time time, you then felt you had to go to something else. I am not negative toward that, thought JBryan expressed it well.

Just FYI, I used to be very compusive about "upgrading" my system to something I thought would be definitively better, but kind of exhausted myself on those very expensive Joules. They're an ultimate amp in some ways, but not perfect. Jud's preamp seems to be an ultimate sort of pre-amp, too, though I haven't tried to compare with others to see what I might think about that. (I'm open to such comparisons, BTW, with anyone who wants to cart his pre or amplifier to my place.)

Anyway, I seem to have decided that I would be chasing my tail to try to go further in chasing equipment. This was also around the time I became interested in listening more to the how, the why, and the theory in classical music, partly because I've been studying those things under a composer in Baltimore. I have also become spoiled by watching classical music as it's being played -- classical videos on the ARTS channel, the special Klipschfest concerts at Strathmore where we could see it very up close and personal, and the modest collection of classical DVDs that I now have and used for the classical music "classes" at the last Indy pilgrimage.

So, in effect, I'm now listening and watching to classical AROUND the equipment instead of primarily tubes and circuitry and then music. I'm quite satisfied with doing that.

Larry

[SSnyder]

Oldtimer told can't get something from nothing SET is way back tube table top-radio (pre FM pre stereo way back even stereoeven NOT for bass powder!

Yea you can't afford 2 systems???????????????????????????????????????? Thrift store system for #2!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111 Don't tell me don't have $20

[SSnyder]

Oldtimer told can't get something from nothing SET is way back tube
table top-radio (pre FM pre stereo way back even stereoeven NOT for bass
powder!

Yea you can't afford 2
systems???????????????????????????????????????? Thrift store system for
#2!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111 Don't tell me don't have $20

[SSnyder]

sorry douplicate post

[Cut-Throat]

Oldtimer told can't get something from nothing SET is way back tube
table top-radio (pre FM pre stereo way back even stereoeven NOT for bass
powder!

Yea you can't afford 2
systems???????????????????????????????????????? Thrift store system for
#2!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111 Don't tell me don't have $20

Steve,

Learn how to run your computer first. Then you will be able to select a proper stereo system.

[Audible Nectar]

I am in the push-pull tube amp camp.

My Peach/VRD system is a kit that I could be very happy with in most every respect....it does just about everything well - accurate, authoritative, and clear.

But the tonal qualities of my MX110/MC30 kit are a different amimal from the Peach/VRD setup....as good of midrange I could ever hope for, and a "saturation"/fullness that is very special. In many respects, the MC30s are "my SET"....the mids I like yet with the testicles that SET cannot provide. SUPER for vinyl and some of those older recordings that need a little life....as well as a great system for much program material I would play on a SET amp if I had one: jazz, acoustic, instumental.

Top flight caps and tubes in the builds serve to remove those last vestiges of inner haze/wooliness that push-pull might otherwise impart. Some of these teflon formulated caps are pure genius, and have taken my gears to a level I never expected. ESPECIALLY with my MC30s....the Sonicap Platinums in these amps just get out of the way, and reveal the beauty of that classic circuit.

Nothing against SET for those who do like them....within their capabilities SET can be very enjoyable and worthwhile. Given the success I have had with these two setups I have no reason to go SET.

For many, the journey IS the hobby. For ME, the journey is enjoyable, but the results and satisfaction of having systems I am truly happy with is what it is all about. Reaching the point where I just turn on the systems and listen - without stressing over whether those microdetails and finishing touches are right - is where I want to be. And it's pretty much where I am. Save for my Thorens TD124, I have analyzed and addressed the issues with my systems, and bask in the satisfaction of finally having the systems and sound I want. And that feels pretty good[8-|]

[Cut-Throat]

Nothing against SET for those who do like them....within their capabilities SET can be very enjoyable and worthwhile. Given the success I have had with these two setups I have no reason to go SET.

What SET amps have you owned in the past?

[NOSValves]

Nothing against SET for those who do like them....within their capabilities SET can be very enjoyable and worthwhile. Given the success I have had with these two setups I have no reason to go SET.

What SET amps have you owned in the past?

Here we go [:@]