Speakmeister Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Maybe you should start your own forum where your jovial converts can share there love of your products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Yes, I would assume he did. I referenced Al's design, because many of us are familiar with his networks. I was trying to point out that the crossover appeared to be a (relatively) constant impedance design, so that moving the taps would not move the crossover point (much). I think Al has addressed the slight variation in impedance (and shifting crossover point) by stating that the movement is negligible because of the shallow slopes involved. All to say that constant impedance/ variable tap design works reasonably well for its intended application. Sorry if I jumped on you about this, I've been pretty defensive on the forum lately. It would be nice to have a reasonable discussion with speakerfritz about this issue. Unfortunately I don't think that's possible. It seems to me that if there was an issue worth being concerned about, it would have been brought up here on the forum long ago regarding the ALK Universal networks. As you say, it has probably been explained away as being negligible with these gentle slope networks. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 http://community.klipsch.com/forums/t/149076.aspx I created a tutorial . The crossover point moves down with the taps. In the tutorial, we start on tap 4 and 400hz. Moving to tap 2 results in 320 hz. If you start at 500hz , as you move down, your at low 400's which is ok for the k-55 but not for a lot of metal diaphragms. The addition of a 10 ohm resistor does not result in constant impedance or prevent crossover shifts. See my tutorial. it doesn't matter who uses the approach, the issues remain. Clearly explained in the above link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crd97086 Posted May 10, 2011 Author Share Posted May 10, 2011 Wow, I appreciate the members who have been gracious, I truly do. And to Speakerfritz, Speakermeister and Mark 1101, you really suck the big one...what do you think this is, Jr High? Bye....................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davis419b Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted May 11, 2011 Moderators Share Posted May 11, 2011 Wow, I appreciate the members who have been gracious, I truly do. And to Speakerfritz, Speakermeister and Mark 1101, you really suck the big one...what do you think this is, Jr High? Bye....................... I really hope you enjoy your speakers they look great, Greg's woodworking is always first class. I am sorry this came up under your post about new equipment, all of this really had nothing to do with you, just bad timing on your part. It was just a matter of time before this happened, people here are kind of loyal to Klipsch and what they have built up over the last 60+ years. Including this forum, and things they do for members, like Pilgrimages, free concerts, drawings for prizes and more. You may not have known everything behind it but there are reasons for what has been said, and by the many who have just stayed out of it so it wouldn't be worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 When a forum members comes here to post he just got new speakers everyone seems to congradulate them. I am not sure why that didnt happen here like it should have. Ummm....it's a Klipsch forum? Would you post about buying a go-kart on a Lotus forum, and expect praise when you claim the go-kart is better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLSamuel Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Audio is a subjective artform, regardless of how technically correct something may or may not be, and that will never change. Ahh. But with the designs of Paul W Klipsch 1st and foremost everything is based upone very souned science and math. Extremely complicated math. The art if any, is applying the math and science to get the 125 hz La Scala bass bin to play down to 45 or 50 hz or so. Verify by very precise scientific measurement. The are ia more in the marketing, some from Klipsch in the past has been pretty full of BS. Re the Forte II / Chorus II I think where the crossover mounted directly to the input cup to reduce the amount of wires.... old Gadfly must've gotten a laugh outta that one. just my 0.002 db Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crd97086 Posted May 11, 2011 Author Share Posted May 11, 2011 Wow Mike, I didn't think you were condescending before that remark. Yes, it is Klipsch's Forum. Is that why you just adore Al K? Give me a break and be totally honest about where your allegiances lie. As was said, Al K. learned from someone else, as did Greg. Why do you kiss Al K's behind while he 'hocks his wares' and it is not taken in the same spirit when Greg does. Be honest, why is that? A Lotus and a go cart. What is biasing you so heavily to Klipsch? Do you honestly think Klipsch is using the best products available? Like hell. We all know that PWK sourced his drivers as cheaply as he could get away with, and that is fine when you are producing for the mass market. Not everyone is able to spring for the best iteration of a product. Yes, in my opinion the Vittora is very much in the spirit of the LaScala. But don't try to tell me Klipsch is using the best drivers available, and certainly they are not putting much into making the LaScala's looks. The cabinets are just the same drab boxes with the addition of wood veneer. I will admit that after I purchased my first set of used LaScalas on a lark a year ago that I loved the sound for awhile. It didn't take me long to realize that it most likely could be done much better. I actually ordered a pair of LaScala IIs direct from Klipsch last August. Then I found someone that thought the same way I did. And he did it for only $2000 more than Klipsch was selling theirs. Volti Audio was the no brainer decision just based on the cabinet, and when you hear them, man that $8000 is suddenly a value compared to what Klipsch is offering to the public. Do you think that PWK wasn't just slightly tickled with how people loved to trade around his products, and that a secondary market for upgrades existed. I am quite sure he was. He was an independant person from what I read, and he is said to have been very giving of his time and knowledge. He would have been honored that someone produced such a product like his that was of such high quality I would have purchased a Klipsch LaScala, but I knew that someone could do so much more with the design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crd97086 Posted May 11, 2011 Author Share Posted May 11, 2011 Which bass bin exactly are we talking about? Wouldn't it be 400Hz? You seem to be saying that only PWK knew how to apply math and physics to acoustic reproduction. And you know what? They didn't have the incredible testing gear that we have today. So, in all honesty, they relied on aural perception rather than just numbers. I read how Vienna Acoustics voiced the pair of Straussesthat I still have. They didn't sit and stare at graphs, that is only used to back up those 'people's' perception that are voicing them. Engineering is an aid, get it, an aid. It is not what motivates and ends the design process. It is used as a guide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 But with the designs of Paul W Klipsch 1st and foremost everything is based upone very souned science and math. Extremely complicated math. They must have spent countless hours with calculators and slide rules. We have it so easy today by comparison. Take a program like Hornresp. With the slide of a mouse we are doing the equivalent of a days work for an engineer back in the 50's. The art if any, is applying the math and science to get the 125 hz La Scala bass bin to play down to 45 or 50 hz or so. Verify by very precise scientific measurement. I think the art is in listening as well as analyzing the data. I've been analyzing the LS a lot lately, and I'm finding its peak to be at about 150Hz with a moderate roll-off down from there. Not much energy in the low bass. It seems the moderate roll-off (as opposed to a roll-off that would be sharper and more in line with the size of the horn) is from the volume of the rear chamber being greater than would normally be the case for the K33. Using Hornresp you can see this response change clearly when changing the Vrc. Making the Vrc smaller results in a more pronounced "shoulder" in the bass, and takes away from the already quiet output of the low frequencies (40 - 60Hz). Just yesterday I was sitting in my shop with four bass horns in front of me, one LS and three prototypes I'm playing around with. The LS is just aweful compared to the prototypes. I think the fact that a "hack" like me can produce better bass horns than the Klipsch LS is a testament to just how far we've come in the design of horns and in our ability to model and measure. I'm able to converse with more than one engineer to help me with the process and I use computer modeling and programs for testing that the guys at Klipsch would have loved to be able to use back in the day. The are ia more in the marketing, some from Klipsch in the past has been pretty full of BS. Re the Forte II / Chorus II I think where the crossover mounted directly to the input cup to reduce the amount of wires.... old Gadfly must've gotten a laugh outta that one. You never know, old Gadfly might have been counting the pennies saved with the reduced amount of wire! Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzannucci Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Wow Mike, I didn't think you were condescending before that remark. Yes, it is Klipsch's Forum. crd97086, Mike's comment was a little over the top though he does have a point. If you built the speaker yourself or you purchased some used equipment and threw them together, I'm sure you would have gotten a different reaction. Your post of a brand new speaker that is designed as it is (very Klipsch like), the issues brought up about crossovers and impendance, they are brand new, your post in general, generates more questions than answers. As you said this has all been done before. Why label the comment line Very Very Versatile Crossovers? As far as being able to create speakers in "the old days", most of the software now is created using the same input and math as in the old days. Computers can just do it much faster. You would get tired doing millions of calculations by hand but the computer does it in seconds. So a microphone, ohm meter, some resistors can give you a pretty good speaker. There isn't really much happening on an Earth shattering scale since the early '50s. If Greg can make a living doing speakers, more power to him. Many other companies have failed but you can't post things such as this and not expect to get a bunch of flack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davis419b Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Re: Am I fortunate or what??? Im done and back to viewing other threads ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nat Denkin Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Pedaling your wares of ripped off designs consisting of PWK's cabinets, ALK inspired crossovers, and Martinelli knock off horns and then having your minions post glowing reviews on the klipsch site... PWK was aware of Stenger's patent (granted in 1932) when the La Scala loudspeaker was designed. He learned from previous patents and taught in his. While ALK was not the first to use tapped autotransformers in crossovers (and I am not aware of any ALK patents), he clearly learned from previous work on RF filter design and considered both amplitude and impedance. His free disclosure of his designs is a valuable service to all DIYers who lack his knowledge and understanding. Paul Voigt used the tractrix design in the 1930's. Following Voigt's death in 1981, Bruce Edgar wrote about the tractrix design that was clearly learned by Martinelli. I own ALK universal crossovers and I have Martinelli 1" throat tractrix horns; while it is obvious that Greg learned from those designs, or the designs that preceeded them, Greg has made changes that may be of interest to the readers of this forum. "Ripped off" would be approptriate only if you have identified patent or trademark infringement. Other knowledge in the public domain is free for anyone to use. Discussion of competitor products on the Klipsch forum provides Klipsch free market research related to their product lines. When there is considerable interest in a modification or competing product, Klipsch (or the current owner) can use to update their designs and/or offer new products. The discussions here of both strengths and weaknesses would also be useful in future planning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizRotus Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Pedaling your wares of ripped off designs consisting of PWK's cabinets, ALK inspired crossovers, and Martinelli knock off horns and then having your minions post glowing reviews on the klipsch site... PWK was aware of Stenger's patent (granted in 1932) when the La Scala loudspeaker was designed. He learned from previous patents and taught in his. While ALK was not the first to use tapped autotransformers in crossovers (and I am not aware of any ALK patents), he clearly learned from previous work on RF filter design and considered both amplitude and impedance. His free disclosure of his designs is a valuable service to all DIYers who lack his knowledge and understanding. Paul Voigt used the tractrix design in the 1930's. Following Voigt's death in 1981, Bruce Edgar wrote about the tractrix design that was clearly learned by Martinelli. I own ALK universal crossovers and I have Martinelli 1" throat tractrix horns; while it is obvious that Greg learned from those designs, or the designs that preceeded them, Greg has made changes that may be of interest to the readers of this forum. "Ripped off" would be approptriate only if you have identified patent or trademark infringement. Other knowledge in the public domain is free for anyone to use. Discussion of competitor products on the Klipsch forum provides Klipsch free market research related to their product lines. When there is considerable interest in a modification or competing product, Klipsch (or the current owner) can use to update their designs and/or offer new products. The discussions here of both strengths and weaknesses would also be useful in future planning. [Y] Well stated. Conclusive proof that Jubilees don't cause brain damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speakmeister Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Greg, Get your own forum. You are a manufacturer, stand on your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Your post of a brand new speaker that is designed as it is (very Klipsch like), the issues brought up about crossovers and impendance, they are brand new, your post in general, generates more questions than answers. As you said this has all been done before. Why label the comment line Very Very Versatile Crossovers? a breath of fresh air....thank you. Furthur, when someone like ALKENG publishes intellectual property and grants free use for personal use, many have issues with individuals who after some positioned questioning (like a technical question to test of understanding the design) admits that the product offering is a copy (in part or complete) of ALKENG intellectual property, which is a violation of the permission granted. And, the violator has been directly told by the owner of the intellecutal property, to cease the practice. Greg brought up his products incorporation of ALKENG design elements, none of which were granted, so he fell into his own sand trap. The only thing original about the subject product is the nice brass screws, and I do like the way the brass screws look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fjd Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 I realize somewhat off topic; however, while reading this thread I started chuckling as I read the various reactions and interpretations of the situation as it has brought back a memory of when I was a presumptuous whippersnapper [6] and tried to sell a bushel of apples in my local grocery store…..The store manager (being a perspicacious individual and not wanting to bully a kid or maybe just intrigued by my ingenuity?) asked me if I had been down to the grocery store on the other end of the shopping center…..When I replied “no,” he suggested that my apples were a lot better than their apples and I would probably have better luck in that store…..I suppose I don’t have to tell you the “rest of the story…..”[] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Yeah, and I'm just a wise guy. Sorry if I made anyone cry. I apologize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crd97086 Posted May 11, 2011 Author Share Posted May 11, 2011 As this thread deviated from my original intention of just sharing what was out there, I became amused with the motivations that lay for refusal to explore a product that is within this forums tastes. P'nuzzi stated that I would have been accepted if I had 'just thrown something together'. That is not what I wanted, I have been doing that for a couple of decades. I simply wanted the very best iteration, and I feel I have attained that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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