Help! Cold Climate Plumbing

[fini]

Next week I'm going to begin replacing the rusty galvanized supply pipe with shiny copper in a house my Grandparents built (and my brother and I inherited) in Mt. Shasta, CA. No one lives in the house year round, and I want to set up the system so it can be easily drained and prepped for Winter. We'll eventually be wanting to visit in Winter, so it will need to be turned back on, in freezing weather. It's not a particularly long or harsh Winter there (compared to our brethren in the midwest, for example), but it does get cold enough to burst pipes.

Grandpa had set up the supply system with drains, and I want to do the same. I'm considering setting up a convenient way to blow out the pipes as well. I have questions about the pressure tank and water heater (should they be drained completely?) and any prep we need to perform on the well. I also have questions about specific pipe sizes, and general organization of the system. It's not a big house, and the plumbing needs are pretty close together.

I've been rather unsuccessful searching online. There is a book that looks interesting (Builder's Guide To Cold Climates by Joseph Lstiburek), but it's over $100. If anyone knows of a more reasonalby priced book (with good info), I'm all ears. Likewise a good website. I've visited Terry Love Plumbing's forum before, and I may try that again. If anyone here has good advice or tips, let me know!

[LarryC]

I'm sure you've done this, but I'll ask anyway: did you ask a local plumber, say re local codes?

[CECAA850]

We don't have those particular issues in this part of the country but there is one thing I thought of. Be sure that when you go from the existing galvanized pipe to your new copper pipe that you use brass or a special fitting to prevent galvanic corrosion. Going straight from copper to any type of steel is a no-no. Also, when using dis-similar materials in a pipe thread connection, always use the stronger material on the female side to prevent splitting. For example, if you were joining copper to PVC, use a copper female thread and a PVC male thread. If you tighten the PVC male thread into the copper PVC female thread it won't split. If you screw a copper male thread into a female PVC thread, you can split the PVC fitting.

[mungkiman]

Have you considered using Wirsbo piping, instead of copper? It can freeze and thaw without bursting, or even permanently changing the shape or integrity of the piping. It's easy to work with, IF you have the specialized tools. Here, these tools can be rented, for the DIY folks. It's still a good idea to set things up to drain, or be blown out, but there is almost always residual water left behind. I would definitely suggest fully draining the tanks, too.

[Coytee]

I also have questions about specific pipe sizes,

Be thoughtful in advance of what you do and your goals.

I replumbed my basement feeds. I'm on a well (over 100 gpm) so water is not a major concern of mine. I built a shower downstairs and wanted to use MORE water in it! I yanked the 1/2" copper off the 3/4" feed from the water heater, replacing the 1/2" with 3/4". I yanked all the 1/2" cold lines and replaced them with 3/4".

Now, I have a full 3/4" hot and 3/4" cold feeding my shower which happens to have 3/4" valves in it (cost me a small fortune for the valve upgrade from 1/2")

now, it's like you're standing in a darn car wash if you turn all the valves on... it's WONDERFUL

and now, the downside.

Something I didn't consider. The trunk line that feeds the shower, also has a "T" on it to the kitchen. I don't know if the volume is double in the 3/4" line over the 1/2" line but the bottom line is, the hot water takes a LOT longer to get hot in the kitchen because I have 15' of "cold" water in my 3/4" hot line instead of 15' of "cold" water in my 1/2" hot line. So, I have to bleed a lot more water through the "hot" before it infact, gets hot.

I could have perhaps put a T in sooner to the kitchen, but frankly, didn't think about it. Still...it's a trade-off that I'm glad I made. The shower is a WONDERFUL shower to use.

Side note... make sure you do not criss cross your hot/colds. I also had a circumstance where flushing the toilet in the same bathroom as this shower, would bring in steaming hot water into the tank.

I tried to look on the bright side, telling the wife it was auto-sanitizing with every flush. She on the other hand, thought it was kind of weird and didn't like it. I told her father (85 years old) that if I ever caught him sitting on this toilet "steaming his buns" that he was going to be in really big trouble.

The mean ole' wife made me rip out some drywall and fix my criss/cross of pipes.

[fini]

I already have the copper piping ( type L, the thicker variety). I picked it up on close-out several years ago, before the price went through the roof (type "L" was all they had left). I should have stocked up on fittings, too! I would have considered PEX tubing, but my brother was freaked out by plastic. One weird thing I saw online, type L is supposed to be used in systems up to 100 degrees F, but the thinner type M was good up to 200 degrees. I haven't seen anything online saying not to use "L" for hot water, so I'm not going to worry. Just wondered why.

Last fall, the water heater was draining very slowly. It's only a couple years old, but maybe some chunks of rust are clogging the valve. As a result, I did not completely drain it. I didn't drain (at all) the pressure tank either. In the future, I will.

[Coytee]

Another random thought

I would always bleed the pressure tank down when leaving (after shutting the pump off). I would also drain as much water out of the pipes as I could, including the hot water tank.

You don't want to shut the pump (only) off and spring a leak somewhere, allowing the contents of existing water under pressure, to work its way out of the tank and onto the floor/walls.

If I leave on a vacation and don't have anyone staying at my house (which I usually do), I do that to help guarantee no accidents while gone.

Regarding blowing out the pipes, can't you simply open several valves upstairs (faucets) and open one downstairs? That will empty most of my system. Then again, my house is vertical. I've also got an irrigation system that I put in. I have a drain on it... but have always contemplated making a fitting with an air chuck fitting on it where I could simply insert the fitting into something (I'd have to figure that out as well) and then apply some PSI to the system to help purge the water. I've never done that though. Got all I need except the fittings.

[CECAA850]

If you get in a bind and really need to get the water out of the heater fast, close the cold water supply, cut the hot water supply (resolder with a slip coupling later) and hook a small air compressor up to it. You can also try introducing compressed air at the hot water side of a fawcet but it's a little harder there. Draining a full tank using only the hot water fawcets for vents takes a while. If there's sediment blocking the valve, some times you can hook a drain hose up to the drain valve and use the city pressure to blow the clog out.

[dtel]

Last fall, the water heater was draining very slowly. It's only a couple years old, but maybe some chunks of rust are clogging the valve. As a result, I did not completely drain it. I didn't drain (at all) the pressure tank either. In the future, I will.

Fini on idea you can try is what I do with all the faucets around the yard. It does not get as cold here as where your talking about but we do get in the teens sometimes.

What I did was install a faucet and a ball valve in the beginning of the line, I use a portable air tank like this, I put a hose end connection on it. I shut off the ball valve, open the last faucet on the line and blow out all the water, it works fast and I never worry about outside frozen pipes.

A small air compressor may be needed but you could use air to do the same thing, install a faucet where the water goes into the house, shut off the water and open the furthest faucet and blow out everything including the water heater.

Air tank I use for hundreds of feet of 1" water lines.

[Coytee]

To anyone:

If you are prone to calcium deposits and do not have a softener (raises hand) then here's something else that I suggest anyone do.

I bought a new water heater because of my car wash shower. Put an 80 gallon in place of my 50. The DAY I bought it I also bought a (guessing) 6" long 3/4" nipple and a 3/4" gate valve with a hose thread output (one with 3/4" throughput, I don't remember if it was one fitting or if I had to get an adapter for the hose fitting).

I immediately yanked the stock drain out of the water heater and replaced it with this. Now, I have a true 3/4" path for "stuff" to exit when I drain the tank. If you know how small the path is in the stock drains you will immediately know why this will help.

[BigStewMan]

If anyone knows of a more reasonalby priced book (with good info), I'm all ears.

I read a book called Because of Romek, it was written by a Jewish guy about his experiences in several Nazi prison camps. I don't recall anything about plumbing though.

[JJkizak]

In earthquake country? I would use the plastic for everything. Copper is a good long term solution as long as the water is not acidic or it will disintigrate in 30 years. How do I know? It happened to me so I replaced everything with plastic. Be carefull with plastic valves however as they age they get very hard to operate. If you want the super duper shower then install a pressure boost pump to 70psi which only costs about 8 grand plus the 1000 dollar commercial shower head and control system.

JJK

[fini]

JJK, Not so much an earthquake threat, but the Shasta house is on the slopes of a 14,162' volcano. When she blows, washing my hands (or flushing poop) will be the last thing on my mind...

[michael hurd]

As was suggested, I would use PEX tubing rather than copper. Faster, easier, cheaper. I guess Wirsbo is now called Uponor.

http://www.uponor-usa.com/en/Header/Systems/Plumbing/Homeowner/Overview.aspx

For the same size line, the pex will out flow copper because all of your bends are gradual, and there are no hard corners. You would have to drain the pressure tank and hot water heater. ( I would consider an on-demand hot water heater if it was a smaller home )

As far as the well, no prep is needed, assuming that the lines are run underground and that the pump is a submersible. If it's inside the house, that's fine, but if so, make sure it's drained as well.

[Coytee]

I was once told that PEX doesn't flow the same as 'the same sized' copper... perhaps the ID's are different?

I don't know that it's true... just something that I was told. They went on to say that if you want the same flow rate you would need to simply go larger with PEX.

[fini]

Michael,

Yeah, the PEX ain't happenin'. Thanks for the well info!

I picked up three books at the library (hadn't been there so long I had to get a new card). I guess my main questions now have to do with pipe sizing and layout (including drain locations). I have a few of those freezeless hosebibs I'll install, although they seem to be more for situations where the pipe is coming from a heated space. In my case, all hose bibs will be at the end of piped run in the crawl space, so I'd have to keep the valve open in Winterize mode anyway. On second thought, we do want to eventually be able to stay there any time of the year. Anyone here in cold climates use pipe wrap wires? Have a favorite type? Do they work? My problem is, there's a high liklihood of losing power during the Winter...

[Coytee]

I have a few of those freezeless hosebibs I'll install

Just a thought for you.... perhaps a silly one.

I installed a hot/cold frostproof faucet outside. Now when we give the dogs a bath, we can give them warm water outside instead of pretty cold well water. I've got it hooked up so that when I install a water softener, this specific faucet will receive softened water. All other outdoor faucets will get straight well water.

I have the vertical unit

http://www.woodfordmfg.com/woodford/Wall_Faucet_Pages/Model-22.html

[CECAA850]

I guess my main questions now have to do with pipe sizing and layout (including drain locations).

Aren't you just replacing existing galvanized pipe with copper? Why would you need to resize?

Drain locations.......Is the piping going in a basement?

[fini]

I guess my main questions now have to do with pipe sizing and layout (including drain locations).

Aren't you just replacing existing galvanized pipe with copper? Why would you need to resize?

Drain locations.......Is the piping going in a basement?

I guess I could just go with the size that's there. I just thought if I could make improvements to the layout, I would. Things like running a 3/4" trunk and 1/2" branches, etc. Yes, the piping (cold) will be under the house (crawl space) and in the basement/garage.

[CECAA850]

The only reason you'd want to increase the trunk size is if you are currently having problems with pressure or volume. If all fixtures function properly, there's no reason to spend the extra money on larger pipe. It's like running 8ga wire to your speakers when they perform correctly with 14ga. If you're planning on installing drains in the lines, use 1/4 turn ball valves, they flow just like an open pipe when opened and rarely give problems. Do NOT use plastic valves. The other thing to try to do when running your main lines is to try to slightly slope them and naturally put the drain line on the low end.

If you're replacing lines in the walls also, it's a good time to install water hammer arrestors, especially in you hear knocking noises in the wall when you turn a fixture on or off. While you're bracing your pipe, do not use ferrous fasteners (steel nails for example) for bracing. It will react with the copper (galvanic corrosion) and eventually eat a hole in the pipe.

If you use an acid flux, be sure to wipe down your connections as the acid will eventually eat the copper if left on for a long time.