Vavoline Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 Bob g., jim g...where are you guys?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 DNTBY4N - You're point of view in the referenced thread is understandable -- but you take it to an extreme that is a little unrealistic. If one of them saved your butt you would certainly be glad they chose the profession they did. As for the rest of this thread -- only Max seems to have his act together. I feel if you find the thread objectionable - avoid it. Good debate means knowing how to agree to disagree. If you don't know how to back up your point of view without resorting to personal attacks then find something else say on another thread. The problem is not the topic of this thread. After 911 we had several threads about that -- and no one objected. Now someone comes in trying to represent the Palistinian point of view -- they need to shut up? All Palistinians are not Muslim. Many are also Christian. Israel is an apartheid state. Where else in the world do we sanction this? This is not an anti-semetic statement -- it's just a fact. Imagine someone comes to your house and says you have to go to a refugee camp. They bulldoze your home. They bulldoze your schools. What would your reaction be? You have no true representation on an international level. You have no standing army. What recourse do you have? What tools do you have at your disposal? Israel is currently in violation of two U.N. mandates. They have been in violation for 40 years. They must revert to the pre 1967 borders. There must be a formulation of a Palestinian State, and Jerusalem must be shared. What I find frightening is the propensity for Americans to throw all Arabs into one dish. This is a terrible mistake. The rhetoric and half truths in support of the Israeli position do not line up with the historical facts. At the heart of the matter is the fact that the United States has NO clearly defined Middle East foreign policy. None. We only back Israel come hell or high water because of the pressure on Congress from domestic Zionists and Christian Evangelicals who believe 1) God sides with anyone who sides with Israel -- 2) The land was promised to Israel by God and so it belongs to them. The Bible actually teaches that "God is no respector of persons and shows no partiality". He judges objectively based on behavior -- Jew and Gentile alike. The purpose of Israel was to bring forth Messiah through which God would join Jew and Gentile together. God is on the side of those who act with compassion and mercy -- who do right. The land promise was fulfilled under Joshua when he led them into the land of promise. The Bible is very clear on this. Joshua told the people: "The Lord gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their forefathers. Not one of their enemies withstood them; the Lord handed all their enemies over to them. Not one of all the Lord 's good promises to the house of Israel failed; every one was fulfilled." Later, as Joshua is about to die, he says: "Now I am about to go the way of all the earth. You know with all your heart and soul that not one of all the good promises the Lord your God gave you has failed. Every promise has been fulfilled; not one has failed. God is not interested in a piece a geography that fulfilled it's purpose thousands of years ago. The only geography He is interested in is the geography of the human heart. As far as the land goes now -- it is important to realize that along with God's promise of inheriting the land -- there were also curses attached if Israel failed to live righteously. God said he would take the land away if the fell into unholy living. Read the beginning of Joshua #23 in context. 1 After a long time had passed and the Lord had given Israel rest from all their enemies around them, Joshua, by then old and well advanced in years, 2 summoned all Israel-their elders, leaders, judges and officials-and said to them: "I am old and well advanced in years. 3 You yourselves have seen everything the Lord your God has done to all these nations for your sake; it was the Lord your God who fought for you. 4 Remember how I have allotted as an inheritance for your tribes all the land of the nations that remain-the nations I conquered-between the Jordan and the Great Sea <1> in the west. 5 The Lord your God himself will drive them out of your way. He will push them out before you, and you will take possession of their land, as the Lord your God promised you. 6 "Be very strong; be careful to obey all that is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, without turning aside to the right or to the left. 7 Do not associate with these nations that remain among you; do not invoke the names of their gods or swear by them. You must not serve them or bow down to them. 8 But you are to hold fast to the Lord your God, as you have until now. 9 "The Lord has driven out before you great and powerful nations; to this day no one has been able to withstand you. 10 One of you routs a thousand, because the Lord your God fights for you, just as he promised. 11 So be very careful to love the Lord your God. 12 "But if you turn away and ally yourselves with the survivors of these nations that remain among you and if you intermarry with them and associate with them, 13 then you may be sure that the Lord your God will no longer drive out these nations before you. Instead, they will become snares and traps for you, whips on your backs and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from this good land, which the Lord your God has given you. 14 "Now I am about to go the way of all the earth. You know with all your heart and soul that not one of all the good promises the Lord your God gave you has failed. Every promise has been fulfilled; not one has failed. 15 But just as every good promise of the Lord your God has come true, so the Lord will bring on you all the evil he has threatened, until he has destroyed you from this good land he has given you. 16 If you violate the covenant of the Lord your God, which he commanded you, and go and serve other gods and bow down to them, the Lord 's anger will burn against you, and you will quickly perish from the good land he has given you." Most of the Old Testament is the story of Israel's utter failure at keeping their end of the bargain. It culminated in Jeremiah being directed by God to take a clay pot to the people -- and drop it. Jeremiah says, "and so shall this people be." God said he would scatter the Jews to the "four winds". So, we have German Jews, Polish Jews, Russian Jews, English Jews, American Jews, etc.. God loves the Israelites and so do I -- God's will is that they return to Him through Messiah. However, God loves Arabs too -- and Israel is wrong. On another note. The Zionist and Christian Evangelical postion is that the Temple must be rebuilt as the Bible prophesied. This is a misrepresentation of Scripture. The Temple prophecy was fulfilled under the direction of Ezra and completed under Nehemiah. Anyone reading these books and not comprehending this is being intellectualy dishonest. Jesus pointed to the Temple and said: "Tear this temple down and I will rebuild it in three days." I could go on forever, but suffice it to say -- any political discussion not including historical and religious references is fruitless. I'm going to bed now. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 05-02-2002 at 08:19 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 Good heavens Dean - that must have taken some time to put together - well done!!! I think I am slightly more sympathetic to Israel's plight than you in terms of their "Apartheid" society. I am not saying that the description is wrong but I would differentiate the "apartheid" practiced in Israel with the more famous South African version. Israel suffers from a paranoia (understandable in the circumstances that they are surrounded by so many enemies - sworn to their ultimate destruction) with regards to all things arabic. Their reactions and means of dealing with this are certainly draconian, but, I would hesitate to give them such a racist tone. I would love to be in a position to firmly support Israel, if nothing else because they remain the only democracy in the region. I am not convinced that the lot of other arabs in the surrounding coutries was that much better than they were in Israel until fairly recently. As it is I see both sides polarizing around extreme positions and am now genuinely unable, as I said before, to support either. I would also add that I think there are rather more reasons for American support of Israel than you list. America has been a long term supporter, from its foundation and has reaped rather more benefits than might be immediately apparent from the relationship. My own read on the situation is that they actively use Israel to keep the Arab nations in check. In many ways it is like America permanently having the 6th fleet on patrol in the middle east without the concommitant risk of loss of American lives. Imagine how different history would have been had Israel been situated closer to Vietnam, for example, or, Korea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 De-Ang Yes great job taking all that time to write all that. All it showed too me is that you ignorantly take the writings of the bible as History instead of the folklore that it is. LOL Then you love jews and dont say one thing in their favor proving your a hypocrite AND antisemite. LOL Israel is a sovereign state by UN Resolution and it was the 8 or so arab countries that attacked Israel in 1967 and thats how they lost their land. Israel obvious needed a security zone when surrounded by barbarians and terrorist murderers. Im not all antipalestinian and admit that Israel has encroached but yes because they feel threatened and rightly so. Think if Mexico and Canada were occupied by hostile regimes that only wanted to drive us into the both oceans and sent bombers in all the time to Seattle or Minneapolis or Chicago or Phoenix and so on. How you like regular terrorist blowing them selves Up in the MAll of America CC109? Thats what Israel gets now on a daily basis. And you think that will end when Palestinia gets the West Bank back? Fools! I got in here because I new all these Liberals like De-Ang would rush in on this and the 1st post was stupid and one sided. Nice link to your other Posts Snackfest. You should be proud and Felt sorry for. Now besides being a Libby Protectionists I know now you a heartless bastard. LOL The liberals hate Israel more now because the moral majority is for Israel in this. Politics as usual. We are headed to WWIII with the muslims for one simple reason. Except for the radical liberals, Westerners think in the greek way. Logic and reasoning. Muslims think by way of revelation. God made OBL do it right Kain? Tell us how you really feel. See in this list why Liberals support the Pallys and hate the Jew. And this is just a partial list. LOL "1. At the most basic level, the liberal is an adolescent forever in search of a world without moral consequence. 2. Freedom from moral consequence can only be secured by a collectivist, totalitarian state. 3. Liberals use moralistic tones and catch-phrases like "social justice", but their only moral is the accumulation of power 4. Liberals ideologies tend inevitably towards world-wide totalitarianism. 5. All non-sexual individual freedoms are despised by the liberal because they demand moral responsibility. 6. The fundamental power struggle of the liberal is individual v. collective. The individual must be relieved of all power in favor of the collective. 7. Individualism demands moral responsibility. Collectivism hopes to eliminate the need for moral responsibility. 8. The U.S. Constitution - specifically the individualistic Bill of Rights - is the enemy of the liberal. 9. The liberal despises the United States because it is the premier gaurantor and promoter of individualism in the world." "Liberals speak often of tolerance, but only tolerate liberals." Now, someone, show me these are wrong. And just a reminder, Israel is the only democracy meaning civilized country in the whole of the Middle East. Now see a link why the Liberals support the Pallys? They Cant help but to agree with their ideology. Poor innocent people not personally responsible for their own actions. Anybody else see the connection Here? The strategy of the W Admin is pretty clear. We against terrorism and your either for terrorism or against it. Civilized countries know what terrorism IS. Remember reason and Logic? Not the Radical Liberals. Peace loving Hippys supporting the same acts as 911. Liberals are the ones who as kids hid under their mother's skirt then bit her on the A$$. That's what they do to the USA. Seeds of our own destruction. ------------------ go forth & hump the world This message has been edited by forresthump on 05-02-2002 at 03:39 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 Max We are for the most part in complete agreement. I would only like to say that when I say "apartheid state", I mean it in it's most basic sense. Israel is a land by the Jews, for the Jews, and exclusive to anyone else. Forrest >>...all it showed too me is that you ignorantly take the writings of the bible as History instead of the folklore that it is. << 50 years ago archaeologists thought the Bible was a joke too -- now they use it as a reference. The Bible is certainly filled with allegory and a host of other literary devices, however - 'folklore' is not one of them. Since I am a devoted student of the Bible and most things related to it, it is not likely that I am ignorant. >> Then you love jews and dont say one thing in their favor proving your a hypocrite AND antisemite. << I was attempting to balance the perspective a little. Religiously speaking, the Jews are the root and the Gentiles are the offshoots. Gentiles are grafted into the root and share in the promises of Israel. Anyone who comes to Messiah is adopted into God's family. Without the Jews, God's family is incomplete. I love the Jewish people because my whole faith is based, and rests on their experiences with God. I love the Jewish people because God loves them. What I said in 'their favor' was that God desires them to come to Messiah. I could not have given them a greater compliment. Politically speaking, The Jewish Nation is engaged in illegal action that relegates the Palestinian people to the status of 'refugee'. The illegal confiscation of personal property is theft. It's very simple. You look at the actions and call them for what they are. "You will not steal". As far as me being antisemetic -- the accusation is not worthy of a response. >>Israel is a sovereign state by UN Resolution and it was the 8 or so arab countries that attacked Israel in 1967 and thats how they lost their land.<< Not quite. There were three countries not eight. The war 'started' when "Egypt closed the Gulf of Aqaba to Israeli shipping and began mobilizing its forces to attack Israel. Syria and Jordan also mobilized against Israel. In response, Israel launched a strike. Starting June 5, the Israeli air force destroyed Egypt's planes on the ground. Enabled by air superiority throughout the region, Israeli tank columns and infantry captured the Sinai Peninsula in three days. Elsewhere, the Israelis overran the Golan Heights, the West Bank of the Jordan River, including the Old City of Jerusalem (which Israel later annexed), and Gaza. The United States called on the Israelis to withdraw from occupied territories..." The Palestinians were caught in the middle as the war was fought out in their territory - land they lived in for thousands of years. The land Israel 'took' was from a people who had absolutely nothing to do with the agression. >> Israel obvious needed a security zone when surrounded by barbarians and terrorist murderers. << The best 'security zone' is the one dictated by the U.N. and the United States. Getting out of land that does not belong to you is a great way to gain security. "...barbarians and terrorist murderers." Nice verbiage here. It's nice when people can put labels on actions, and the labels themselves determine the validity or acceptability of the actions. When we perform actions that cause the death of civilians, we call it "collateral damage". So what do we call the annihilation of the civilian populaces of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? As twisted as it seems, the Palestinians are waging war the only way they know how. To try and apply moral standards to actions in war -- is ludicrous. War is horrible. Period. The first American victory of The Revolutionary War was fought on Christmas morning after Washington's Christmas night crossing of the Delaware to capture Trenton. What is not much discussed is why Washington chose Christmas morning for this battle. If truth be known - he knew the enemy would be sleeping off a good drunk from the previous nights Christmas celebration. Half of them were killed while still sleeping in their bunks. The Colonists were considered 'immoral' because of the way they fought -- because they would not subject themselves to the British rules of warfare. >> Im not all antipalestinian and admit that Israel has encroached...<< Why not leave it at that instead of rationalizing the actions? << >> See in this list why Liberals support the Pallys and hate the Jew. And this is just a partial list. LOL << I'm not laughing. You are now going completely off topic. Political affiliation has very little to with where one ends up regarding this particular subject. At any rate, I am actually a conservative in the purest sense -- believing in the original articles as put forth by Lincoln. Where did you get what follows? From the Rush Limbaugh site? >> At the most basic level, the liberal is an adolescent forever in search of a world without moral consequence.<< Yea right. Liberalism brought us workers rights and a host of other concepts protecting people from the abusive practices of business. Many more examples, but I'm stopping with that one. >> Freedom from moral consequence can only be secured by a collectivist, totalitarian state. << On the political scale, Communism is to the far left of liberalism, but OTOH - Fascism is on the far right of conservitism. This statement is extreme to say the least, and so means very little. >> Liberals use moralistic tones and catch-phrases like "social justice", but their only moral is the accumulation of power. << And of course, us conservatives never use 'catch-phrases' to ever misrepresent anything, do we? I'm not even going to bother with the rest of it because it so general. Most of it is actually quite ridiculous. Many of my friends are 'liberal' -- but none of them believe the things you are applying to them. Putting people into categories only puts up barriers and tells us nothing about the person. >> And just a reminder, Israel is the only democracy meaning civilized country in the whole of the Middle East. Now see a link why the Liberals support the Pallys? They Cant help but to agree with their ideology. Poor innocent people not personally responsible for their own actions. Anybody else see the connection Here? << I'm sure convinced. So how do explain the fact that most Jews also happen to be liberal? Your point is completely invalid. Also, since when does a particular political slant guarantee correct moral behavior? I find it amusing that you would equate 'democracy' with 'civilized'. The democratic system may be orderly in nature, and so gives manageable form to civilization -- but a good look around will see that most democratic societies have serious moral issues. Whatever connection you are making is purely in your imagination. "Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem." -- The Apostle Paul, A.D. 56 ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 05-02-2002 at 10:32 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 It kills me when guys like De-ang call themselves conservative just because they believe what conservatives believe in one certain area thats the most important to them. That being the moral majority far right views influence on the GOP. Just because of these views you have De-ang don't call yourself a conservative. What a joke. Being Overly religious you have no choice. Radical Liberals are for most part atheists or agnosstic. Everything else you believe is far left from the Pally position to labor unions. Come down from the Mount man the air's too thin for you. LOL Your grasp of history and facts on the conflict has that nice liberal media slant all right. You probably don't know it though since the liberal record keepers are engrained into the pyche of Americana. LOL FE the Pallys were innocent bystanders in 1967. Nice spin Libmeister. LOL And the Pallys sold land to Jewish settlers and then try to take it back through the New Socialist Republic of the UN. Miss that little piece of history by mistake? If somebody is going to onesidedly back the Pallys then at minimum they should support their country and condemn terrorism along with it. Not agree that its a necessary evil. Thats what i get from the pro-pally so far. No condemnation of terrorism. For the mentally challenged I can define it. A soldier does not target with intent to kill, innocent civilians including women and children. Sure the US along with Israel have caused the deaths of civilians and it is collateral damage. Mainly caused because the chickensh*t opposition is hiding amoungst those civilians. The A-bombing of Japan was an extreme and a neccesity to save the lives of around 1 million people including many of our own soldiers. It was a necessary trade off and an extreme example which is brought up by the likes of De-ang to distort the picture. A terrorist has the intent to kill civilians - women and children. THAT is their primary if not only purpose. Follow yet? One because they are too chickensh&t to fight like real men and Two, because the civilians women and children are easy targets. In our courts Murder is based on intent. The pallys and OBL Terrorists are murderers plain and simple. They are one and the same and in fact linked through their networks and idealogy. Timothy McVie was not in the same boat as these thugs. His Aim was not to kill innocent women and children but take them along with the US Government workers. He did not do that to just kill women and children and never would. Why Don't the Pally murderers target only the Israel military or at least Government employees? Is because they dont have weapons of bigger destruction a good excuse for instead killing ordinary civilians? The Liberal Media and De-Ang highlight the sorry historical phlight of the Pally people. Though their main objective is to indirectly make trouble for a GOP admin, taken literally they are also mistaken. This about religion and revelation that makes muslims think that god condones terrorist killings. The only way to oppose that is with brute force as we've seen in the Mid East and Afghan. Power is what the dogs understand. The media downplays that this latest esculation of violence with the Pallys started when the Israelis took out a Humas leader. Its been going ever since then. They care more about their terrorist leaders and the future of terrorism against Israel than their own civilians lives who are not so involved in driving Isreal into the sea. They have their priorities set through Arafat. The disputed land is a decoy. It's much bigger than a parcel of land. The only hope is the end of Arafat's rule and hopefully a more peace loving leader who doesn't come from the ranks of terrorists. You'll see the only hope for the region and the world is changes in leadership of Pally and Iraq for starters. Not including the ignorant pacifists who should move to Europe, the US has Ba%%s and they'll use them. ------------------ go forth & hump the world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 To add I've never started a Thread about Politics or Religion on this an Audio/Video Entertainment Site. I've never started a thread that puts down Klipsch. I only respond to them and support klipsch in every way. Those i've critisized deserve so in the minds of the ordinary music HT Entertainment lover. Think about it. I'm a necessary Evil. HAHAHAHA ------------------ go forth & hump the world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 To be fair here a Jewish Israeli view " erupted in the Church of Nativity, and taking the position of a de facto blame against the Israelis for the harm to this recognized holy site. But, forget about the details, right? Forget about the fact that Palestinian ARMED gunmen took over the church, and used it as a shield without any regard for its history, or sanctity. Forget about the fact that the Palestinian gunmen are holding HOSTAGES in that church, for if they were not hostages then they would have been able to leave without negotiation, correct? Meanwhile, after the media in general alluded that the Israelis were to blame for the destruction, and the fire, the international press corp attended, according to CNN, MSNBC, and FOX an Israeli army briefing, and slide show that cleared up the dispute in respect to blame. First, based on the debriefing of the many who have been able to leave the church, it was discovered that the Palestinian militiamen, those same people who are supposed to believe that the Church is a holy place and it is to be respected as such, have basically booby trapped the whole complex with bombs, and snares. Second, the allegation that Israelis started the fire last night is now revealed. Zoom lens pictures taken by Israelis during the firefight showed that the fire had actually been started by Palestinians inside the church, rather than external, for the glass in the windows in the room where the fire blazed were blasted outwards, rather than inwards. The premise is that the fire was started so that Arafat, who was just emerging from his confinement, could have a great issue to condemn Israel, and to bang his fists on a table. So, now we are to believe that the Palestinians have a fond, and reverent affinity to Christian relics, and holy sites, right? Bolderdash! If they could booby trap the Church, it only means they don't give a hoot about destroying it. Meanwhile, I wonder what would happen if some Israelis, who might be pinned in an uncompromising positions, would take refuse in a Mosque...there would probably be a call for the Ultimate Jihad! Finally, it is quite obvious that the gunmen inside the Church are known terrorists who are wanted by Israel for wanton bloodthirsty murders against civilians. Where is the outcry of the world community to the PLO to turn over those criminals for justice? Oh no, the PLO are given terms so that they can have those criminals go through the revolving doors of their makeshift prisons, or be released after a mob vigilante demonstration. How long will this charade continue? Terrorism has many faces, and Arafat with his murderous entourage are the key players perpetuating that mode of violence in the region. It is about time that the world media wake up, and put some pressure on the real inhibitors of peace in the Middle East." ------------------ go forth & hump the world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 'Scorched Earth Policy' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 I have never, nor will I ever align myself with the so called 'Moral Majority', or any other right wing religious organization. I prefer to think for myself. Neither do I line up with loud mouths like Rush Limbaugh. Again, I prefer to think for myself. I'm actually a moderate, and believe both sides have good things to offer the country. I have to concede you make some good points otherwise -- but is not necessary to resort to personal attacks. If I am mentally challenged it's because I had to deal with you on four hours sleep ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikekid Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 Hey Forrest, I gotta admit that sometimes you crack me up....... And stop humping the world.....it just isn't healthy anymore! Later Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 Deang but you said you were a conservative before. Now a Moderate. You admitting more in the right direction now. LOL Thats OK then we are a lot a like. You a left Leaning moderate and I a right Leaning Antagonist. LOL I Just like to come here and read for entertainment to get away from the real world. Reading guys like the Ears puts me in the cosmos with him and sometimes makes me also want to be with a moose. And Mike S vandalizing homes and Snackfest not giving a rat's about the deaths of firefighters and police in NYC 9/11 makes me feel like a better person myself. Trying to show this argument is never ending unlike stereos no matter who looses we at least still have good sound. This all silly that's why i'm here. Entertainment dude. Klipsch Rules. ------------------ go forth & hump the world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 Damn, this is some pathetic entertainment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jethro Bodean Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 forrest, In comparing pallys & obl terrorists to tim mcvey you stated, "Timothy Mcvey was not in the same boat as these thugs. His aim was not to kill innocent women and children but take them along with the US government workers. He did not do that to just kill women and children and never would." That has to be one of the most ignorant statements I have ever read. Man, defending tim mcvey. That is really just way to right for any true American conservative. TM was a gutless coward. He blew up a building with innocent women & children inside, but did not AIM to KILL them? He just took them along with the US government workers! So its o.k. to kill US government workers? Some of those workers were women. I guess since they were government workers, they were not innocent women? Were they all liberals that worked there? I'm sure that if they were indeed all liberals then that is how you and your hero mcvey were able to justify the bombing. You give us conservatives a bad name. Jethro..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 Forest, Yes -- I am a right wing moderate conservative with a somewhat right of center liberal catch in my hip. I walk funny. Jethro, I did not sense Forest was defending TM's actions. He was only trying to point out some of the differences in focus regarding targets when comparing 'soldiers' to 'terrorists'. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 05-03-2002 at 08:19 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jethro Bodean Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 deang. That may be, but I feel TM is a poor example for that comparision. TM was not a soldier. He was a terrorist. He planted a bomb next to a building full of innocent people. He was not trying to attack a military target. He is in the same boat as the 9/11 scum. jethro.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 Jethro Deang got it and you not. I would never condone that murdering bastard. I'm showing there that the INTENT, VALUES, IDEALS of the terrorist from the likes of Pally Humas are to an even more Evil degree. Look at Humas last assualt that they took credit for. Walking in to normal everyday citizens homes and shhoting them dead in bed. Those people may not have even agreed with the policies of Israel. There was no chance hardley that they were associated with Isreali Gov. The Federal Building in OK City served a different purpose Dont you think than if he would have Blown up a Nursery School? And I not a Conservative in the Political sense. I hate the moral majority. I'm an Adult film actor in Alaska what do you think? People should be able to do as they please if it doesn't hurt anybody else. ------------------ go forth & hump the world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jethro Bodean Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 forrest. Well, TM did blow up a nursery! Lots of babies and little kids. I really can't see how anything could be any more evil. INTENT, VALUES, IDEALS? TM was a traitor. He was an American killing other Americans. That is about as treacherous and evil as you can get. Those people in the federal building were also normal everyday citizens. A lot of them may not have agreed with the policies of our government. They were only associated with the government cause they had a job assisting people with social security or other such business. They were not policy makers. They were not collateral damage caused because the enemy opposition was was hiding among civilians. I took your previous statement about TM to mean you almost approved of him. If I was wrong, then I apologize. I find it interesting that you say "people should be able to do as they please if it doesn't hurt anybody." That was the mantra of the radical liberal hippies you so dislike. Well now. It seems you have more in common with those liberals than you think. jethro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 Jethro no i'm no right wing extremist but no left wing pacifist. But if someone wants to do with their sexual life as the please then fine. All hippies are not gay and all gays are not hippies. I'm definitely hetero but a libertarian. I just cant stand the radical liberals on anything to do with the economy and pacifist liberal hippies who wouldn't want any fighting even if OBL walked up and blew up their VW van in the driveway. I hate the notion of their thinking people arent responsible for their lack of success in life or their misdeeds. The radical liberal wants the government to be in control of everything except people's sex lives. I don't want the Gov telling me what to do with my sex life either. But they see no sense to use the military except against it's own people. Hitler went from far left to facism. So i'm a libertarian who believes the only reason for government is a strong military and to protect people from other people and the natural elements. Not to protect people from screwing up their own lives. That's the individuals responsibility. Our legal system is based on 3 types of murder with emphasis on premeditated intent, intent of the moment and reckless illegal behavior causing death. murder 1,2,3. no doubt mcvie had intent and was a murderer. I'm just saying his targets were for direct revenge against those that were responsible for an act that was unjust he thought. The terrorist targets those that are only guilty of being a citizen of the country & gov they despise. There is a difference when you look at the future. Whose likely to kill more innocent men, women and children in the future? One murderer with a set target, or an organized network with random targets? That's my point. EOM That's my point. ------------------ go forth & hump the world This message has been edited by forresthump on 05-03-2002 at 06:45 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted May 5, 2002 Share Posted May 5, 2002 Oh ho I see ForrestGump hangs where there is trouble! Way to go Gump Colin, With all due respect you cannot force or pay ANYONE to go and blow himself up.Its BS and propaganda. The ones who commit this horrific act have conviction(right in their minds)you cannot change with any amount of money or small talk. Ok peeps now what does this WAR and massacre topic has to do with Klipsch? Klipsch moderators do you damn job and close this topic.Its a audio Kipsch forum and not a zealot forum. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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