Comparison of all models?

[MikeFord]

I've tried a bit of searching, what I am looking for is comparison with comments of all the various speaker models (old ones) and drivers. A kind of baseline for my Klipsch education so I start knowing whats what, how models kind of rank etc. how my Heresy compares with a Forte II etc. Anybody have a link to something like that? Thanks

[garyrc]

It's complicated because as you move from one speaker system to another AND from one type of design to another you tend to gain something AND lose something.

I would guess in an A-B double blind test some listeners would prefer a Klipsch Jubilee, while others would prefer a Klipsch Paladium, based on the aspects of sound/music they value most. If I ever moved away from Klipschorns, it would probably be to a Jubilee or some Klipsch professional or cinema system, because I would never want to give up my dynamic range, dynamics in general, inc micro-dynmics, etc. Someone else might move to another line because they find some other aspect of sound more important.

Almost 50 years ago, when I first became an audiophile, those members of our high school orchestra who were also audio buffs found that their preferences seemed to be related to where they sat in the orchestra. While all favored the top of the line they liked, those in the brass section, or those sitting right in front of it, tended to like JBL, Klipsch, Altec and EV, horns all. People embedded in the violin section liked Bozak, and other speakers using treated paper cone tweeters. Very, very few liked acoustical suspension speakers because of lack of clarity and dynamics, even though they had the flattest frequency response of all at that time.

As to "old ones," all I can say is that the Forte I got a rave review in the old High Fidelity magazine. I suspect the Forte II has more extended bass than your Heresy. I believe the Heresy II and the Forte I have the same midrange unit. Which do you think sounds better overall? In general, I think that the speakers get better as you move up within a line (i.e., within Hetitage, of within Reference). The differences between the lines are differences in taste, philosophy, and cost.

[Coytee]

Almost 50 years ago, when I first became an audiophile, those members of our high school orchestra who were also audio buffs found that their preferences seemed to be related to where they sat in the orchestra. While all favored the top of the line they liked, those in the brass section, or those sitting right in front of it, tended to like JBL, Klipsch, Altec and EV, horns all. People embedded in the violin section liked Bozak, and other speakers using treated paper cone tweeters. Very, very few liked acoustical suspension speakers because of lack of clarity and dynamics, even though they had the flattest frequency response of all at that time.

Very interesting stuff [Y]

[Groomlakearea51]

Given certain quality of construction and sound engineering principles, most Klipsch speakers can be rated in desirability, but the "selection" is also related to several factors (including Gary's observations).

Size of the room? Is it too small or too big for the speaker?

Geometry or design of the room? Many rooms are from an acoustical standpoint, not much better than a large dumpster..... Rooms closer to the "golden mean" in terms of measurement generally will sound much better. Sloped ceilings, insulation, etc. come into play.

What's in the room that affects sound? Furniture & most often rugs. The giant "comfy" chairs? Drapes vs blinds? Clutter such as desks, tables, etc? All of this can profoundly affect what any speaker will sound like.

Where are the speakers in the room? Improper placement (relative to the above factors) can make an otherwise unarguably great speaker seem mundane.

What is the sound "bias" of the listener? What are the applicable psycho-acoustical factors that influence the listener? Things always sound better when it's a nice warm comfy room that one just likes to be in, LOL!! A nice looking speaker always sounds better than the identical model but has been scratched up, spray painted, etc. It feels, well, "better". Better is good... It's a known phenomenon that someone who pays $100,000 for a pair of speakers (regardless of whether they sound horrible or not), will absolutely swear they are the best sounding speakers in the world. Same effect is what fuels the sale of high end speaker wire, interconnects, and other audio accessories. Practicality was never high on the list for the "super-audiophile".

Thus, a blanket statement that says this speaker sucks vs that speaker, or this speaker is the "best" vs that speaker, is generally too simplistic, in my mind. Given all of the factors that can influence the "decision", the only way to find the best Klipsch speaker (for the individual) is to consciously keep the factors in mind, and.... Listen to all of them, noting which ones sound better in the listening environment that is similar to where the potential buyer will place a pair.

Does that mean that the Heresy is better than the Klipschorn? Of course not. But if you have a small room, crappy corners, lotsa' clutter (dorm room or student apartment comes to mind...), the "shoe-horning" a pair of K'horns into that room will not result in the legendary sound for which it is capable.

So many factors....

In the end, it's going to also be the ear of listener. Lotta' folks will swear by the Forte', while others will say Heresy, others Chorus, others Cornwalls, etc., etc. ad infinitum.

Can they be ranked in some fashion?

Yes; price, specs, build quality can be objectively described, but it's a "performance consensus" which really builds a better picture over time. At least that's a starting point.

Just my thoughts.

[H]

[Pete H]

In the end, it's going to also be the ear of listener. Lotta' folks will swear by the Forte', while others will say Heresy, others Chorus, others Cornwalls, etc., etc. ad infinitum.

Some great comments and I would even say that your mood can sway what you like at a particular time. I, like others, have many combinations of gear and speakers, but I find myself wanting to listen to different set ups at different times.

[Marvel]

Almost 50 years ago, when I first became an audiophile, those members of our high school orchestra who were also audio buffs found that their preferences seemed to be related to where they sat in the orchestra. While all favored the top of the line they liked, those in the brass section, or those sitting right in front of it, tended to like JBL, Klipsch, Altec and EV, horns all. People embedded in the violin section liked Bozak, and other speakers using treated paper cone tweeters. Very, very few liked acoustical suspension speakers because of lack of clarity and dynamics, even though they had the flattest frequency response of all at that time.

Very interesting stuff

My younger son plays trumpet, and liked the JBLs and Heresy IIs at the house. When he came home from school (Valpo, played in the univerity orchestra), the first time he sat in front of the La Scalas, he was quiet for a while. His first comment was... "There's an orchestra right in front of me."

Bruce

[Ironsave]

Yes; price, specs, build quality can be objectively described, but it's a "performance consensus" which really builds a better picture over time. At least that's a starting point.

Just my thoughts.

As always; Groom is spot on here.......

I will also add that each person can have some sort of emotional bias towards a certain speaker line based on experiences with them.

I will never sell my Heresy Is; even if I get Palladiums; I would still keep the Heresy Is I own; because of sentimental valus and because of the kick butt speaker these little guys are.

Since I do not own Forte I or IIs and got the Heresy Is instead..... You could argue that I am slightly biased.

(I will say every Klipsch speaker I have heard sounds really good or better).

[WMcD]

Certainly the is nothing out there which gives an objective metric for speakers in the first place. One exception may be the work of Dr. F. Toole. His book is very long and complicated and reports on his life of testing. But that doesn't really answer your question.

Ann Landers said, "All generalizions are false, including this one." Smile. IMHO, though:

1) A big three way horn in the right room is astonishing. So the K-Horn and Jubilee are pretty much king of the hill.There is something about an all horn loaded speaker which is natural and balanced and coherent. I haven't heard a JBL Hartsfield but they are in the same class.

2) Because of size and lack of corners, a small bass horn becomes necessary. The LS and Belle get good results but don't go as deep. A sub can fill the bottom end, but that is true of many systems.

3) Direct radiator bass units are often a good alternative (and pretty much the only one). Here you are getting a little more distortion, in theory. They don't rely on corner loading and modes for reinforcement. In this scheme, we are talking about "bass reflex - ported" (Cornwalls, Chorus I, and the Palladium) and many other Klipsch designs. A variation on this is the, passive radiator in the Forte I and II, Chorus II and Quartet and others. This allows a reduction of box size from ported and probably low distortion, generally. The last is a sealed box like the Heresy and others.

A gross generalization in bass boxes is that bigger is better.

4) If you have a direct radiator type bass, it is best to keep the horn loaded treble going as low as possible. IIRC the CW with its K-600 horn went down to 600 Hz. People build Cornscalas using the K-400 horn which goes down to 400 Hz.

5) A three way design (one with bass, mid, and tweeter) is better than a two-way (just a bass unit and treble). This is a result of 4) and the fact that it is difficult to get a horn driver to work over a very wide range. There can be horn issues too. So if you want horn loading down to 400 Hz, it is not going to work up to the limit of hearing at 15,000 Hz without getting into equalization. The flagship Palladium is a three way.

6) A constant directivity treble system is probably better in a lot of situations. It can keep the sound projected by the speaker off the walls ceiling and floors. Klipsch is calling these type horns, "Tractrix." The products which illustrate this is the change from the Forte (I) to the Forte II. The Forte (I) used an exponential midrange. Klipsch engineers were so impressed with what they call the Tractrix that they created the Forte II, Chorus II and Chorus II. I'm a believer.

We hear from good people here that Forte and Forte II sound very much alike. I suspect they do when placed in a room where there is not a problem with reflections from nearby walls, etc. But I suspect that if you have an issue with wall reflections, the Forte II (etc.) will do better.

The tractix has a lot in common with conical horns. This family is known for reduction of internal reflections within the horn as well as directivity control. Some of us have heard the big treble horns designed for movie theaters at Hope. They are very clear and perhaps this is because of lack of internal reflections.

7) The whole issue of directivity or control of the pattern is coming to the fore and may be an important metric of what makes for a good speaker. It seems that, subjectively, it is best that the woofer polar pattern (set by its size and the cabinet front in which it is mounted) should be similar to the mid horn at the cross over point. This requires consideration of the bass box which these days tends to be tall and narrow. In some designs only the top driver is working in the upper ranges.

For example, if the mid horn has a 90 degree "polar" pattern at its lowest working freq, it is good if the woofer has a 90 degree pattern at its highest working freq -- so that way we are switching (crossing over) between similar patterns at the crossover freq.

8) One misc. issue is height. Generally things are best if the mid and tweeter are at ear level, or at least in line of sight to the ear. Small speakers have to be tilted or elevated. I love my smallish Quartets but had to build stands for them. Maybe the taller Forte would be better. So if you devise a metric for small speakers, the requirement for stands may take away the merits.

WMcD

[consistent]

Great response WMcD! I guess most people would not hear or know distortion until they discovered what a speaker sounds like with low distortion v what they consider has been 'acceptable' in their world. Horns do this well as they offer low distortion. Many people shy away 'cause they are big and often intimidating but from my experience as soon as people come in contact with a great set of horns in the right room and right config they are 'gob smacked'. Some I have seen cry!! After all what do you mostly hear at the movies or concerts...it's horns. People can't believe that the live sound, low distort is feasible in a home.

I have had many products over the years and over the last 35 years always had a pair of Klipsch in the mix. I remember writing to PWK about Forte's v Heresy he replied that he liked them better as they offered a further half octive in the bottom and were better placed for the ear and the move to the tractrix 'opened things up a bit'. So I bought a pair of II's and never looked back.

I love to fiddle and currently own a pair of Klipschorns (04) were I have built 3 different tractrix mids (PWK use to say the mid range is where it all happens). I now use Le Cléac’h Acoustic Horns see http://www.azurahorn.com/index.html the guy lives 10 minutes from me. I have a Crites tweet in the vertical position and no, repaeat no mods to AK-4 crossover. What a sound! I did at one time put in an Altec 288 16k great driver but a little over powering even with different alignment. I went back to the K55 and it has come alive with th Le Cleach horn. Applied lots of room treatments, wife hates it, I love it.

Nothing beats horns in a room built to take 'em

Cheers

[MikeFord]

Nothing beats a room dedicated for audio, and its usually the element we have the least control over.

Thank you all for the answers, I need to think about and read some more.

One note on distortion, Altec and JBL did a demo one year at CES. Eight JBL amps with 400 wpc, sixteen voice of the theatre speakers, a large projecion screen in about a 40x60 room seating maybe 100 people at a time.They gave a brief promo talk, told us what the equipment was, then started a video of Neil Diamond at the Greek theater, and bumped the volume up every so many seconds. None of the normal distortion ques were detectable so the "volume" as perceived didn't change that much, but in fact they took it from below 90 db to just above the threshold of pain. It was a 5 minute education in hearing I will never forget.