Klipschorns Bleeding My Ears.

[LarryC]

Have you checked the output of the woofers? You could temporarily disconnect the tweeters and mids and see if you're getting useful output from the woofers

Good idea. No doubt you want to find out what the problem is before undertaking adventures in replacing horns or drivers. As long as you're disconnecting drivers, be sure to compare the sound from the left bass horn alone with the sound from the right bass horn alone (you may need a mono source to do this. Ditto L and R midrange drivers/horns by disconnecting the bass and tweeters. Then the L and R tweeters by themselves. I've done this in the past at low volumes/power levels and it hasn't seemed to hurt anything. Anyway, that process might help narrow it down.

I have two basic suggestions, one a repeat: try to find current (2004 or later) K-horns or LaScalas to listen to. That experience will definitely tell you if you have a problem midrange. Two, contact Bob Crites and have him lead you through a diagnostic process and recommend a solution.

If a comparison between yours and current models is stark, then I would suggest you either (1) follow Bob Crites's recommendations to solve it, or (2) buy and install a pair of AK-4 kits -- bass bin doors/mounted crossover; new tweeter, new midrange driver, and pre-cut speaker wire connections. It seems to me that those replacements would bypass whatever the problem is. That's my $0.02.

[pzannucci]

Take a look at this article if you have not seen it before:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/storage/3/1037187/Richard%20C%20Heyser%20KHorn%20Review.pdf

Also take a look at the impedance in the 2k area as pointed out before. This extra info may be helpful.

[Colin]

Nonsense. EQ is NOT the only weapon of choice. In fact, most small to medium size room will need some form of acoustic treatments to deal with the energy sucking room modes. Khorns can be hot in the mid-range, it makes recordings seem harsh, something to do with the crossover. Crites has solutions, so does Al K (ALK). http://www.alkeng.com/klipsch

[Colin]

BTW, I do use a Behringer crossover to smooth out the peaks, love it, don't think it degrades the sound, think EQ makes most systems sound better for the money

[T.H.E. Droid]

None of the people recommending against using L-pads could give a technical reason for not doing so, and electronically speaking, I can't think of one either.

See Al's last bullet statement here: http://www.alkeng.com/pad.html You have to run the math, but it is possible to drop the damping ratio too low (less than 20) using an L-Pad if a network isn't intended for one. See also: http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/understanding_the_relationship_between_amplifier_damping_factor_impedance_c/

First of all, I can't see any way to evaluate what ALK is trying to get us to buy because I see no techical explanation of what he's selling. If I had to guess, it's nothing more than a variable tap autotransformer. But because he doesn't say what the circuit is, I have no confidence that his claims are factual. There's nothing exotic that I've seen in the Klipsch crossovers that I've handled so far, they are pretty standard filter networks. Since the L-pad is an industry standard level control, I'd have to see some real information that shows it will not work with my A/4500 crossovers. Bob recommended against using L-pads, and also recommended against changing the autotransformer taps. He did give me a technical explanation as to why the transformer taps shouldn't be changed, but not against the L-pads.

As to the other article you quote, you somehow missed the first line of the article, which reads "In live sound reinforcement systems, damping factor is really driven by the length and size of our wire and the impedance of the loudspeakers we connect at the other end." As much as you want to support your argument, there's a real difference between a live sound system (which may have more then two dozen speakers, a dozen or more amps and many HUNDREDS of feet of cable. The information in the article is important for those applications but trying to apply it to a home stereo system is simply irrelevent. If you're trying to put your loudspeakers 200 feet away from your amp, and then drive it with 2000 watts, maybe, but I haven't seen a setup like that in anybody's home.

[Marvel]

Since the L-pad is an industry standard level control, I'd have to see some real information that shows it will not work with my A/4500 crossovers.

I think L-pads make more sense. If you change a tap on the autoformer, you must also change cap valuse to compensate for the change, so the crossover point stays the same. L-pads are certainly cheaper than autoformers.

Bruce

[pzannucci]

Lowering the dampening factor on the midrange will not affect the sound nearly as much as with required control needed in the bass.

[sunnysal]

Before investing in serious mods I too think it would be ideal to get yourself "calibrated" as someone said earlier it's not that anyone doubts your ear, but Klipsch is often described as hot on top by people and so it can hard to measure from a written description just how out of whack your k-horns may be. If you can find someone near by who has k-horns set up so that you can listen and compare you will save a lot of time and effort. board members are great folk and I am sure if anyone lives nearby they will offer an invite for a listening session.

I had k-horns with AK-3 xovers and never felt they were too hot in the mids or highs. However my taste may be different than others. as others have mentioned, good, air-tight seating into 90 degree corners is important. I also wold note that the phasing of the wiring to the individiaul drivers and between the two speakers is very important in tonal balance and imaging, so do check those connections and take some time experimenting to make sure all wiring is done correctly. If you have done all that then mods can begin with a new crossover, I found my bass response seemed to improve with my ALKs for example. others have mentioned that swapping out compression drivers can make a world of difference, if you have the bucks for that most people tend to be happy with the results, I suspect swapping horns to be less important than drivers on both the mid and tweet.

Dont take it badly that some people are suggesting you may not like the Klipsch sound, it is not a knock, it is just our experience that these are love them or hate them speakers, they elicit strong repsonses, in both directions, from listeners.

I hope you manage to wring the sound out of your k-horns you are looking for, those of us who have done so are thrilled with the results, others move on to other models/brands.

best of luck and keep us informed. warm regards,

Tony

[garyrc]

• It's not that lack of a good corner seal with corner that deviates from 90 degrees affects the sound of the midrange directly, as much as it is that it can kill the mid and upper bass, making the Khorns sound "hot" due to a balance issue. I believe Klipsch said that a poor seal attenuated response in the range of about 100 to 275, compared to midrange levels. That is a range with a lot of punch, IMO, and the lack of it could make the sound too "hot."
• I've had Khorns in three rooms in different houses, and am creeping up on the fourth. In most of the rooms the balance was good and they measured O.K., although in one room there was a dip at about 60 Hz, with a robust return as you went downward toward 40. In one room, the bass was still full and loud at 35 and was actually a tad elevated at 31.5 Hz! The bass was audible down to 25, but not clean, like at 31.5.
• When you did your listening test with the test disk, did you have another speaker present to compare the Khorns to? To the ear, all speakers would be expected to seem to get softer in the bass, due to Fletcher/Munsen, even at fairly high SPLs (according to the charts) and deterioate badly as the SPL gets lower.
• I, too, played in orchestras, and if I had to characterize Khorns, they would be "hotter" rather than "cooler," as would some JBLs, etc., BUT every time I tried tamer speakers (from Bozak in the late '60s and '70s, to a cross section of the few speakers of the "golden ears" of the '90s & '00s that were available for me to listen to, THEY would not seem "hot" enough after I went to a concert (Classical/Romantic/Pop/Jazz). The only speakers that can capture the "peel the paint off the walls" sound of my old orchestra playing The Great Gate of Kiev are various Klipsch & JBL models.
• It is true that PWK ranked frequency response as the least important quality, with lack of distortion, dynamic range, and good transient response near or at the top.

[Coytee]

Ok, I've let it go to the 4th page before popping off....[]

If you can get to Bay City, you should set a time to hear Bob's Jubilee's. I don't know how much you spent on the Khorns but before buying them and then reconstructing them into something new, a trip might prove interesting.

I don't know your budget either so pardon me if it's been stated and I've missed it. Just trying to throw other ideas out there.

[Quiet_Hollow]

If you can get to Bay City, you should set a time to hear Bob's Jubilee's.

I'd recommend against that as a means of comparison. It'd be a nice visit no less, but there'd be no correlation regarding K-Horn's and Jub's in terms of presentation. The two tops would sound vastly unique from one another. There's very specific reasons why Jubs sound the way they do, they are not K-Horns.

[BE36]

My ultimate plan was to update the K-horns with better components. I just wasn't planning on upgrading so soon. Since the mid-range can be pretty difficult to listen to, I'll probably have to complete this sooner than later.

Can these K-horn upgrades be completed easily? Here's the low-down on my mechanical skills. Very basic. Replacing the speakers seems pretty basic but the wiring and soldering scares the bejeezus out of me. I tried to self-study electronics from old WWII manuals many years ago....then the chapter on Ohms Law came up and suddenly it looked like too much work and I bailed-out. Really, I'm a music lover first. Not totally helpless, just fearful of screwing it all up.

What idiosyncrasies are involved in replacing the AK-3 crossovers in 1993

K-Horns? I understand there is a second set of crossover

components in the woofer cabinet that have to be bypassed? Is this easy

to complete? Would I need new woofer doors? Gotta drill new holes?

Thanks for hanging in there with me....Rob

Easy to replace mid horn - Fastracs are bolt on replacement, use same holes as stock horn. No drilling no soldering.

[Coytee]

but there'd be no correlation regarding K-Horn's and Jub's in terms of presentation. The two tops would sound vastly unique from one another. There's very specific reasons why Jubs sound the way they do, they are not K-Horns.

Exactly.

If so inclined, he might hear them and think why go through the efforts to reconfigure the Khorns when (if in his budget) he could sell them and put those funds towards their intended replacement.

Merely trying to get him to think about all the options on the table before he puts upgrade dollars into the Khorns.

[Quiet_Hollow]

My misunderstanding. [:$] Sage advice there.

[MikeFord]

You might want to see if anybody remotely near you has the upgrades and is willing to let you listen.

[Coytee]

You might want to see if anybody remotely near you has the upgrades and is willing to let you listen.

He's more than welcome to come to Jacksonville for a listen. I'm somewhat near him...... remotely.

[]

[deafbykhorns]

You might want to see if anybody remotely near you has the upgrades and is willing to let you listen.

He's more than welcome to come to Jacksonville for a listen. I'm somewhat near him...... remotely.

After you visit Richards house, stop by my house to listen to the Khorns with all the modifications available. The Jubilee's may be the end all be all but could be low on the WAF. Richard, I need to come by your house this month if you have some time. You done with your training? I will tell you my Khorns don't sound like klipsch anymore. You may be happy with just the alk universal, they kept me satisfied for almost 6 Yrs. This will improve imaging and take care of the ear bleeding horn. This mode made the most improvement to my system followed by the wood horn and the tweeter.

Do consider the jubilees if you like the dynamics of the khorn but hate the mid horns. I would probably purchase the jubilees before purchasing the more expensive 2" horns

[Coytee]

Howdy John...

The formal classroom training is done. Now am working on some other things.

Best time for me to do anything is on Sat/Sun.

Although this month is fine (just as fine as any other) the word is that my TAD's might be arriving sometime in October if they stay on scheduel!

Give me a call. Cell phone is turned off during day but I try to check messages at lunch and of course, when I leave.

Might be interesting to hear them in stock form and then swing by later to hear them in TAD form.

[garymd]

Pointless to audition Jubs IMO.

Come to Maryland or go elsewhere and hear Khorns. The goal here is to listen to what others consider great-sounding Khorns (not to toot my horn but many here have a similar setups as mine and we all agree they sound terrific) to decide if you like the Khorn sound in the first place.

[Ironsave]

Pointless to audition Jubs IMO.

Come to Maryland or go elsewhere and hear Khorns. The goal here is to listen to what others consider great-sounding Khorns (not to toot my horn but many here have a similar setups as mine and we all agree they sound terrific) to decide if you like the Khorn sound in the first place.

I agree with Gary. Listening to a correctly set up pair as a baseline is what was suggested 3 pages ago, I believe.

I also think hearing Jubes down the road might be good, particularly if he has decided he dislikes correct KHorn sound...

(Jubes are another more expensive but awesome option).