kvsound Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Hi Folks, I have no experience with tube amps so I would like some advice. My speakers are DIY Cornscalas and my current amp is a Wyred 4 Sound STi-1000 integrated which is fantastic and is staying in my system. I'm looking to get a tube amp to add to my set up for those times in which I don't feel like blowing the roof off or late night listening so what I want is something that will be superb in the midrange for acoustic and vocal type music. I would want it to be an integrated amp with pre out for running subs. I'm thinking 2A3 or 300B unless there is better options with Klipsch so to those who know, how would you descibe the sound differences between the 2A3 and 300B? Thanks in advance. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Hi it's going to depend on the kinda sound you're looking for? In my opinion the 2A3 and 300B aren't that far apart, the 300B has a very laid back lush sound loke if the music is thick. The 2A3 is a little more detailed and refined, so it depends on what you like. Also the 2A3 is about 3 wpc and the 300B is around 8 wpc. Then there are different tubes for each amp that will change the sound to a degree so there is alot of options for you. Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik2A3 Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 What's important to keep in my, IMO, is not just the tube in question, but the circuit in which it's used. I built a pair of direct driver-stage-coupled 300B monoblocks last year that are anything but lush. They in fact are more detailed sounding than all of the 2A3 amps I have, in the sense that high frequency response is more sharply and cleanly expressed,but in a way that does not put a microscope on every minute sound -- which can lead to fatigue and result in out-of-balance frequency response. Moreover, the brand of tube certainly has something to do with the overall sonic presentation. I have used KR Enterprise 2A3s in the past, which I like very much, although some describe them as 'transistors in a bottle.' I disagree entirely. It's subjective in that sense. Other differences have to do with output power, with the 300B probably having subjectively better (as in more perceived) bass response, but the sensitivity and efficiency of speakers being used. If at all possible, as with all aspects of this, try to hear some different examples if you can, and choose for yourself. Depending on the output transformer used, it's also very possible to modify a 2A3 circuit for use with 300Bs, and vice-versa. 2A3s use 2.5 volts on the heaters, whereas 300Bs use 5, but there are options for 2.5 volt filament 300Bs. There are options. SET amps can be addictive sounding, but it would be completely error to not mention the very, very good results people have had (including me) with higher powered push-pull options (including push-pull 300Bs and 2A3s). I recently spent weeks completely overhauling an organ amplifier using push-pull 6L6s that caught me completely off guard by how good it sounded. A few changes and subtractions of existing circuitry and re-grounding resulted in an amplifier that truly seemed to have every bit of air and presence of good a 2A3, 300B, or 45 amp, but with much more horsepower and decidedly improved bass response -- for which SET amps, in some circles, do not enjoy the best reputation. erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik2A3 Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 ...in fact I can't get that Baldwin out of my mind! I was thrilled to have found another, completely untouched from its original construction, so that I can make one, with these new circuit additions and subtractions (one of which did something very special....), for my own. The one to which I refer above couldn't be in better hands, and for me that's nice to know. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captmobley Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 I have a pair of Welborne 300b Laurels first and then Welborne 2A3 Moondogs running through Klipschorns. Since I set the Moondogs up, they haven't left. There seems to be more, for lack of a better description, more air around the notes on the 2A3's. I also have a set of Bottlehead Paramour 2A3's on my cabin system with LaScalas and couldn't be happier. I'm sure you would be happier with either, but when I listen to Diana Krall on my Moondogs-it is just sublime. It has truly slowed down my upgraditis obsession. Not cured, mind you, but brought it into remission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Since I set the Moondogs up, they haven't left. There seems to be more, for lack of a better description, more air around the notes on the 2A3's. They're magical... I keep thinking I will tweak mine some, but it scares me that I might no like the outcome. The one think I would do is add a choke to each one (Erik always encourages me to try it...), but they sound so good already. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube fanatic Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Don't feel that you must go with DHTs to get wonderful triode sound. Triode strapped pentodes can also do an amazing job. Check out the offerings from Decware before you make any definite decisions. http://www.decware.com/newsite/tubes.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Listen to an OTL if you have the chance. They can also sound quite nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo33 Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Since I set the Moondogs up, they haven't left. There seems to be more, for lack of a better description, more air around the notes on the 2A3's. They're magical... I keep thinking I will tweak mine some, but it scares me that I might no like the outcome. The one think I would do is add a choke to each one (Erik always encourages me to try it...), but they sound so good already. Bruce Over the years I have had about 7 pairs of tube amps and now they're all gone except the Moondogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik2A3 Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 The grid chokes are a snap to put in -- and so also to take out. Sell them to me if you don't like them! I have also have Moondogs, as well as two strikingly good sounding OTLs from Transcendent Sound. 2A3s in parafeed (aka shunt feed) topology mentioned above are probably the closest I've heard to a transformer coupled SET amp sounding something like an OTL. All of these are really fine amplifiers! My impression of the 2A3 is also that there is lots of air around instruments, and that I seem to detect an upward tilt...which shouldn't be surprising since these triodes really shine in the midrange. I suppose the 300B sounds maybe sort of 'rounder' in that sense, but again it depends on the circuit, as well as fine tuning with passive parts to one's liking -- meaning coupling cap types, carbon vs metal film resistors, tube rectification vs SS, and so forth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik2A3 Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Or.... Sophia Electric "Baby" costs less than a couple pair of 2A3s and 300Bs that I own and is another amp that shines with the bigger Klipsch Heritage boxes. As its name suggests, it is a small, bit very heavy amplifier. I would say a down side is that output tube choice is limited to what is supplied by Sophia Electric. My wife gave me one of these as a holiday gift, thinking it a very "cute" little thing. The sound of that amp and Klipschorns, however, is not one I'd describe the same way. For the cost, soumd quality is very good, and is one tube amplifier that reminded me, somewhat of the well known class A Monarchy solid state amplifier ( which I ultimately found less involving than I would like....subjectively somewhat 2-dimensional sounding). The "Baby" had what seemed a similar tonal balance, but with a more tangible, rich, and 3-dimensional presence. I know many really like the Monarchy, though. Next to a recently rebuilt organ amplifier, the Sophia amp is also one of the very quietest amps I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kvsound Posted September 23, 2011 Author Share Posted September 23, 2011 Thankyou all for your input. Because 300B or 2A3 amps are not commonly available in stores to demo, I'll probably need to buy one without hearing it first so my main question is to do with whether or not there are major sound differences between the two. As I'm keeping my Wyred 4 Sound amp, limitless power is covered by that so what I want is a tube amp that will excel with 'air' between instuments, something that has a deep soundstage, 'midrange magic' so to speak, and power rating isn't a concern, just sound quality! Also, I've read on here that some people say a push pull 2A3 may be the ticket ? At this stage, I'll go with an integrated and maybe one day go with separates if I fall in love with the sound. There's a guy local to me who hand builds high quality tube amps (Weston Acoustics) but he only builds to order so I can't actually audition and these may be a bit pricey at this point so I'm thinking of (God forbid) a Chinese amp but not sure if that's a good idea. The best choice may come down to the availability of good quality tubes at a reasonable price! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 I think erik2a3 is on to something regarding 300B amps. In addition to the circuit, they demand proper iron, without which you end up with the more syrupy presentation. Unfortunately, there are probably more of the syrupy variety than examples of well executed 300B amps, but thats what happens when folks are more interested in capitalizing on the 300B reputation than making a good amp. And the ones that DO fully exploit the 300B are typically expensive, reflecting the high cost of the big trannys. 2A3's seem to be a bit more cost effective. And PWK had a 2A3 amp in his office, fyi, although I doubt it was a SET. Someone mentioned Decware, which is what I use 'cause I'm a cheapskate. Steve's particular recipe seems low on the syrup, and high on the 'air/space/holography', with a nice, deep extended response. This works great for me, coming from an exclusively SS background. Ignore Steve's hyperbolic sales pitches, but don't overlook his amps. They sound amazingly good. Speaking of which, Decware is having it's annual open house in a couple weeks. Attendees invariably bring their own amps to compare, so if you're near Peoria, IL, it would be a good chance to personally audition a whole bunch of esoteric SET gear. I think it's the weekend of Oct 7-9. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 I have a pair of Welborne 300b Laurels first and then Welborne 2A3 Moondogs running through Klipschorns. Since I set the Moondogs up, they haven't left. There seems to be more, for lack of a better description, more air around the notes on the 2A3's. I also have a set of Bottlehead Paramour 2A3's on my cabin system with LaScalas and couldn't be happier. I'm sure you would be happier with either, but when I listen to Diana Krall on my Moondogs-it is just sublime. It has truly slowed down my upgraditis obsession. Not cured, mind you, but brought it into remission. Your description of the Laurels and your Preference for the Moondogs mirror my experience. I would also like to add the improvements that you saw with the Moondogs over the Laurels, can also be had with the Welborne 45 Amps over the Moondogs. I currently own all 3 Welborne SET amps. 330B Laurels, 2A3 Moondogs and the 45 Starchiefs. I use the 45 Amps about 90% of the time. I also listen to a lot of Diana Krall style Jazz and this is where the 45 Amps really excel. Our taste in music seems very similar. If you ever get a chance to audition a 45 SET amp in your system, I think you will be smitten as I was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captmobley Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 It's nice to have confirmation. It's virtually impossible to try out new amp configurations without buying them and bringing them home. It's pretty hard to tote around a pair of Klipschorns or LaScalas to audition a new amp. I bought the Welborne's solely on the Klipsch forums recommendations(particularly Marvel's on the Moondogs). I have Bottlehead Paramours with my LaScalas but they don't have the transparency of the Welborne's. Since I set the Moondogs up, they haven't left. There seems to be more, for lack of a better description, more air around the notes on the 2A3's. They're magical... I keep thinking I will tweak mine some, but it scares me that I might no like the outcome. The one think I would do is add a choke to each one (Erik always encourages me to try it...), but they sound so good already. Bruce Over the years I have had about 7 pairs of tube amps and now they're all gone except the Moondogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Our taste in music seems very similar. If you ever get a chance to audition a 45 SET amp in your system, I think you will be smitten as I was. I would have to agree with this 100% as I went from a 2A3 to a 300B and then to a 45 SET and have been there ever since. Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik2A3 Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Personal preferences aside for a moment, it would be helpful, I think, to learn some other facts related to this application: room size being an important one. Triodes seem to be very good in terms of midrange in general, with one or another offering balancing that with appropriate bass response. I have an OTL amplifier that is very close to the 45 in terms of power output, but unfortunately can't be used in the room for which I thought it would be suitable. I tend to listen at rather lower to moderate volumes, and 1.5 watts just could not load the room correctly, even with vocals, baroque, and acoustic jazz. This was surprising, because I LOVED the amp when it was in a small area. BTW: a preamp out is not needed to run subwoofers if the subwoofer has speaker level inputs. Mind you, this does not imply that one is obliged to use the speaker level outputs from the subs to the main speakers, which frequently have a dividing network in series with it (for crossover ranges around 80 to 100 cycles or so). Connect both the subwoofers AND main speakers to the amp, and in most cases impedance interactions are not a problem. It's how I've been using our SVS subwoofer with the 300B monoblocks. A 45 SET might be just the ticket! So might something in shades of 2A3 or 300B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik2A3 Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Listening to La Scalas in the near-field late at night with a low power SET amp of whatever flavor can be magical. They can be like extremely good headphones with real frontal imaging rather than great sounding music lodged in the middle of one's skull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 Don't feel that you must go with DHTs to get wonderful triode sound. Triode strapped pentodes can also do an amazing job. Check out the offerings from Decware before you make any definite decisions. I've never had much luck with triode strapped pentodes such as 6BQ5 without feedback. The sound was a accentuated sharp/shouty midrange to my ears. I may have done something wrong being a rank amatuer, but I always had better luck using the 6BQ5 in pentode mode, with a dedicated screen supply or screen tap on the OPT, and some sort of feedback applied. Directly heated triodes without feedback do have a bit of accentuation in the midrange, but not with a sharpish bite that a strapped 6BQ5 has...in my experience. I'd venture to say good single-ended pentode mode 6BQ5 circuit with proper feedback applied, can sound closer to a DHT amplifier than a triode strapped 6BQ5 circuit. I dunno...there is this euphoria going with the sound of a directly heated triode such as a 2A3 or 45 that a indirectly heated 6BQ5 doesn't seem to quite do. To my ears. Never tried triode strapped 6V6. With published curves in triode mode, it may be worth a shot. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik2A3 Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 I agree. I have a small, 4 watt 6BQ5 (12ax7 driver) that actually has what to my ears is a more evenly balanced frequency response than some 2a3 amps 8've heard, but perhaps not quite the euphonic quality of the triodes that can be favorable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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