colterphoto1 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Ok, finally getting some use out of my 2-channel room (photo gallery room for those who have been over here). I have Khorns and Jubilees in the room currently fronted by a nice Yamaha pre.... Main system in the hearth room is Yamaha receiver with LS/ CW/THXsubs.. ...I have 4 turntables- Music Hall MMF5 (purchased from JWC, nearly new), a Thorens TD125MKII that's had some repairs and it in shop being fine tuned now, and a couple old Technics SL1700 solid-as-rock direct drives that need new cartridges. Which one would you use in which system and recommendations on not-too-spendy cartridges for the Thorens and Technics please. Tip - the BEST table should take up residence in the gallery, which will be the more esoteric gear for stereo listening (most LP listening in this room), the other will be a more 'utility' unit for everyday occasional listening. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR1987 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Those Technics tables are pretty darn reliable. I prefer Direct Drive simply because everyone I know with a belt driven system has had trouble finding new belts. But who knows, everything has it's flaws. But I play my records every day and don't want to be bothered with belts. I am more familiar with the Technics table, and my cheap Audia Technica is basically a rip off of it. So I'd go with Technics. As far as cartridges, I don't know. Im a firm believer in "what the manufacturer recomends". Mostly because I've read too many responses saying "if you didn't buy a 34,000 dollar cartridge you are a moron". That and I don't really know the difference between MC and MM (besides magnent and coil) and low vs high vs medium output. Everyday listening I'd go with the Technics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I was very happy with the sound of the Shure M97xE on my old Technics SL-1400MK2, so when I got a new SL-1210M5G, I used the same cartridge, just replaced the stylus (only $50), and it sounds even better on the new turntable. The M97xE is inexpensive, has a smooth and pleasing sound, and is tolerant of old vinyl, meaning that surface noise is relatively low, in spite of picking up lots of detail in the music. BTW, have you checked the suspension of the SL-1700s, so that the springs are properly positioned and tensioned? It's possible for them to be out of position, which will keep them from operating properly. It's pretty easy to dial them in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 Thanks guys, the M97 ( guess the latest is the xE?) was a recommendation. Someone put a P-mount on the Thorens and the arm looks like it's wavering a bit so that needs setup. The MMF5 sounds great and looks sharp but the Thorns has that heavy-duty-antique thing going for it. Not sure which I'm pulling for. I'll have him put a 97 on the Technics, take it for a spin, wait and see what he finds out on the TD125MkII. ... Just got a call, he's like 'uh did you know the SL1700 is stuck on 45rpm mode? Yeah a friend brought some punk 45 as part of her halloween outfit so we played it lol. Took a bit of brain power to recall that. He also carries the Grado line, the black is inexpensive but I'd probably get a silver or gold for the 2 channel room. Any thoughts there? Or use the same cartridge so as to better hear the differences in systems?? (hmm) Then there's that whole mass/compliance thing which I understand but this turntable synergy seems a bit of black art... Oh, and he echoed the advice of many - hang the thing on a shelf! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merkin Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I will second Island on the shure 97xE. I put one on my technics and it works well. The only thing I don't like about it is if the duster is down it jumps the first two grooves ot he the first track since it takes some weight off the stylus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artarama Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I would put the Thorens in the main gallery. I like the vintage. Probably most would say not as pretty as the Music Hall but definately more nastalgic, if the is any sort of goal. Set up right it should perform as good as any in your stable. Does the Thorens have the SME "curved" arm on it or the Thorens "straight" arm? I think an MC cartridge on the Thornes would be perfect in the main room. Your speakers deserve it. But now I'm just fantasizing about your system [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I would put the Thorens in the main gallery. I like the vintage. Probably most would say not as pretty as the Music Hall but definately more nastalgic, if the is any sort of goal. Set up right it should perform as good as any in your stable. Does the Thorens have the SME "curved" arm on it or the Thorens "straight" arm? I think an MC cartridge on the Thornes would be perfect in the main room. Your speakers deserve it. But now I'm just fantasizing about your system I agree! I think he has the TP-16 tonearm, which is a perfect match for the Denon DL-103. The TP-16 has an effective mass of 16.5g and the DL-103 mass is 8.5g. The compliance of the 103 is 11 at 10hz (compliance of 5 at 100hz), so when you do the math the resonant frequency is around 9.5, which is ideal for that tonearm. Michael, pick yourself up a 103 (103R would even be better) and a lomc stepup transformer, and it should throttle the competition there. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 ML is right, it has the basic Thorens tonearm. I'm low on funds, how does a Shure M97e sound for that table? Am I doing it an injustice? Btw, what do you guys think of the MMF5 with Gold Ring cart, is that a decent rig by comparison? M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechMan Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I am using a super om20 on my tp16 and it's very good. Just another option, it's a perfect combination imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 The Ortofon and Shure cartridge have way too much compliance (25 or so) and not enough mass for that tonearm (TP-16). Their resonant frequency would be somewhere around 5 or 6, which is way too low. Will they work and sound good? Probably... but there are better cartridges for that tonearm. Once you go to a lomc you can never go back to moving magnet imho. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I will second Island on the shure 97xE. I put one on my technics and it works well. The only thing I don't like about it is if the duster is down it jumps the first two grooves ot he the first track since it takes some weight off the stylus. As it says in the instructions, the brush presses down with a force of 0.5 gram, so you have to add 0.5 gram to the tracking force when using the brush.I'm using 1.35 grams tracking force, plus 0.5 for the brush, so the total is set on the counterweight at 1.85 grams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artarama Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 ML is right, it has the basic Thorens tonearm. I'm low on funds, how does a Shure M97e sound for that table? Am I doing it an injustice? Btw, what do you guys think of the MMF5 with Gold Ring cart, is that a decent rig by comparison? M Michael, I have no direct experiance with the MMF5 but it certainly looks like a nice table. I find the synergy of the table/cartridge and system components to vary quite a bit. What sounds just OK with one set-up sounds significantly better in a different system. They are easy enough to swap around so why not get three of them working good and then start swapping tables and then cartridges from one table to the next. You ge tgood at setting up a turntabel pretty quickly. Hey, it's a hell of a lot easier than moving those speakers around brother! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 I will second Island on the shure 97xE. I put one on my technics and it works well. The only thing I don't like about it is if the duster is down it jumps the first two grooves ot he the first track since it takes some weight off the stylus. As it says in the instructions, the brush presses down with a force of 0.5 gram, so you have to add 0.5 gram to the tracking force when using the brush. I'm using 1.35 grams tracking force, plus 0.5 for the brush, so the total is set on the counterweight at 1.85 grams. Thanks guys, yes I've run a Stanton 681EEE on my Technics since High School (I know, I know - stop throwing stuff at me), and used to making the additional tracking force adjustment. Gary is sending me a Shure 97, is that NOT recommended for the Thorens then? My repair guy already has a the Grado Black on my Technics. If the M97 would work well on the Technics, I'll give back the Grado Black and get a nice cart for the Thorens- does this sound logical? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 Since I have two Technics, that's two headshells, so I could keep the Grado, mount the Shure 97 on the other and A/B them to see which I like better. Sounds like neither is the right animal for the Thorens. If that table proves to be mechanically sound, such that I think I'll really USE and trust it with my vinyl, I should spend the bucks to put the DL103 on it then? My little Yamaha pre has MC/MM switch so guess I"m set there, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 FWIW ~ here's my penny. Direct drive turntables are generally junk and a scam. Unless you're using a multi-ton lathe type table that has considerable isolation or something like a Technics SP10 with the optional plenum they are worthless, especially with high output speakers like Klipsch. The manufacturers of these tables almost always "weighted" the rumble, and wow & flutter specs to make them appear superior in performance than a belt drive TT. If you don't believe me, just try this test to see how well its isolated from external vibration. Turn your system on. Place a record on the turntable. Place the needle/stylus on the record. Do not rotate the record. Slowly turn up the volume on your system. Do the same with even a mediocre belt drive turntable and compare the result. In my experience the direct drive turntable always starts to generate feedback at lower levels. While it may not be as apparent when the music is playing, its still there, adding coloration to the sound and using unecessary amplifier power to produce the low frequency rumble. The arm mass and pickup compliance must be properly matched to get the best performance from either. Some pickups even have special arm requirements such as damping or a unipivot bearing (aka Decca). The Thorens TP16 arm sometimes gets a bad rap from the snobs but is actually quite good and was designed to work well with a wide range of pickups. I've had three of them. Don't fall into the mistake that there is something wrong with the arm bearing because of the play in it. The play is supposed to be there ~ it was designed that way as I was told by a Thorens representative many years ago at the Chicago CES. Some people think the play shouldn't be there and mistakenly try to tighten it up. WRONG!! As far as pickups go, its kind of like wine or ice cream. Some like red, some like white, some like rose, some like vanilla, some like chocolate, some like neopolitan. Its your ears and you have to listen to it, not anyone else. Setting up the turntable, arm/pickup balance and geometry will get the most out of any analog set up and is of upmost importance. If you don't have an arm/pickup alignment protractor do yourself a favor and get one! When your system is setup correctly, I bet you won't notice much, if any, difference between a good analog and digital source, other than maybe the groove running noise between tracks. Not even a tick or pop [] Put the Thorens with the best system. Direct drive turntables are for DJs. Scratch, scratch, sniff, sniff. [H] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 THANKS Artto, that's the 'issue' I've been having with the turntable, from above it looks like the tonearm is fighting to stay in the groove. I passed along your comments to my local technician. Perhaps all it needs is a new cart and off we go? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Direct drive turntables are generally junk and a scam.Direct drive turntables are for DJs. Scratch, scratch, sniff, sniff. That's not the opinion of the large number of forum members happily using direct drive Technics turntables. Haters gonna hate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Direct drive turntables are generally junk and a scam.Direct drive turntables are for DJs. Scratch, scratch, sniff, sniff. That's not the opinion of the large number of forum members happily using direct drive Technics turntables. Haters gonna hate... And since when has consenus been valid as truth? If that were true the world would still be flat and the earth the center of the universe. [] And of course, everyone would own Klipsch [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Direct drive turntables are generally junk and a scam.Direct drive turntables are for DJs. Scratch, scratch, sniff, sniff. That's not the opinion of the large number of forum members happily using direct drive Technics turntables. Haters gonna hate... And since when has consenus been valid as truth? If that were true the world would still be flat and the earth the center of the universe. And of course, everyone would own Klipsch So who started that rumor about the earth not being flat? I just went for along walk and if it wasn't flat I would have started leaning as I went along. So there! Just tried your needle test with my new toy, a mid '70 Sony PS6750. Price tag back then was700 so pretty high end. Using a Denon 103r lomc thru my pre's step up with 220 ohm resistance loading and near-field Cornwalls. Could not detect any feedback until very high up the knob. Not saying the tables perfect, the arm's a little light and doesn't plow thru some albums like it should, but far less rumble then my venerable Empire 298 with RS 212 Ortofon arm. Now wait a minute, I just bent down to pick up a penny and I got a little dizzy and started leaning a little, Maybe the world isn't flat after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Direct drive turntables are generally junk and a scam.Direct drive turntables are for DJs. Scratch, scratch, sniff, sniff. That's not the opinion of the large number of forum members happily using direct drive Technics turntables. Haters gonna hate... And since when has consenus been valid as truth? If that were true the world would still be flat and the earth the center of the universe. And of course, everyone would own Klipsch So who started that rumor about the earth not being flat? I just went for along walk and if it wasn't flat I would have started leaning as I went along. So there! Just tried your needle test with my new toy, a mid '70 Sony PS6750. Price tag back then was700 so pretty high end. Using a Denon 103r lomc thru my pre's step up with 220 ohm resistance loading and near-field Cornwalls. Could not detect any feedback until very high up the knob. Not saying the tables perfect, the arm's a little light and doesn't plow thru some albums like it should, but far less rumble then my venerable Empire 298 with RS 212 Ortofon arm. Now wait a minute, I just bent down to pick up a penny and I got a little dizzy and started leaning a little, Maybe the world isn't flat after all. thebes, you're doing it wrong. You're supposed to bend down while doing the test!! [8-)] [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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