Chris A Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 A true mark of intelligence is know how to use your resources.[Y][Y][Y]Testing to sort people's abilities into bins is another problem - and typically done not very well with regard to predicted scholastic outcomes. Testing to find the top 0.001% of students isn't any easier if you are trying to correlate to career outcomes years later. I recommend Robyn Dawes paper on "The Robust Beauty of Improper Linear Models" for decision making: it's very entertaining once you get past the prob & stats used to prove that the method works. I use his approach quite often in building all kinds of decision models. It can even help to decide what stuff you need to buy and in what order in your hi-fi setup, and how much should you be willing to spend given a budget... [] I like system-level trades..[] and Moneyball (the book)... [Y] The same technique can (and is) used in analyzing new business cases. Any entrepreneurs here? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted February 22, 2012 Moderators Share Posted February 22, 2012 It took me a long time to look up all those words. I had to open another browser and google them all. Then I knew their definitions. A true mark of intelligence is know how to use your resources. [Y] Your in good company. “Never memorize something that you can look up.” ? Albert Einstein But he also said “Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.” ? Albert Einstein My favorite “Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.” ? Albert Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 thanks islander. that was fun. You're welcome, DD. I think that's all it's meant to be. I doubt anyone would be hired or fired over their results on this fun quiz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Testing to sort people's abilities into bins is another problem - and typically done not very well with regard to predicted scholastic outcomes. There is an irony with the GRE. It allows students to -- validly or invalidly -- sort themselves into bins, and if they don't, the admitting faculty can take the GRE scores as a hint concerning who should be put into the out box -- just a hint, because after the Nader and other lawsuits a person is very unlikely to be denied admission on the basis of the GRE alone. But, the Dark Secret (at least among the public) is that scores on the GRE don't correlate very well with grades in graduate school because the range of scores becomes truncated, a no no in correlation. People scoring low on the GRE tend not to show up in graduate school, either because they are discouraged and don't apply, or because they are rejected --- so we have a truncated range of GRE scores. That alone would lower a Pearson r. But wait, we are not through. People who are admitted to grad school are expected to do well -- in a way they are admitted because the faculty predicts that they will earn almost all "As." Those who finish, do. Unlike on the undergraduate level, a "B" in a graduate course is bad news, and a "C" has the feeling of an "F." With students pounding on the gates to get in, modern grad schools don't want to waste resources on students who get many grades below "A" once they are in grad school. If a grad student is having trouble, the faculty often gives them a lot of help, or refers them for counseling, or the student drops out. So, the the range becomes truncated on the grades axis as well. The lower part of the scatter diagram drops away on both axes, producing a very low and not significant correlation. If we admitted everyone, the GRE might turn out to be highly correlated with grad school grades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 It's well past time to change the educational system to funnel talents into appropriate skills training, from MBA to mechanic. Germany comes to mind, but God forbid we do anything that makes sense if it smacks of "european style socialism." BTW from what I can gather from all the sound bites anything european is automatically a style of socialism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 It's well past time to change the educational system to funnel talents into appropriate skills training, from MBA to mechanic. Germany comes to mind, but God forbid we do anything that makes sense if it smacks of "european style socialism." BTW from what I can gather from all the sound bites anything european is automatically a style of socialism. Oh, there are wackier things than that going on: http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/302200/20120221/indiana-republican-bob-morris-accuses-girl-scouts.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 It's well past time to change the educational system to funnel talents into appropriate skills training, from MBA to mechanic. Germany comes to mind, but God forbid we do anything that makes sense if it smacks of "european style socialism." BTW from what I can gather from all the sound bites anything european is automatically a style of socialism. Increasing the number of internships or apprenticeships might help. There are a few college programs in which the students spend several hours a week in (sometimes paid) internships, then come to seminars to postmortem and fine tune their work week, as well as receive some formal education. Paul Goodman thought that even medical students would benefit from working with a physician before going to medical school, perhaps before their upper division work as undergraduates. I mentioned this to my surgeon (about 40 years ago) and he said, "That's the way I did it -- in a M.A.S.H. unit in Korea!" He said that when he got back he was far ahead of some of his fellow medical students that didn't have that experience, and the detailed cognitive map of the human body he had was thus provided at the taxpayer's expense. Gosh, I hope that's not socialist. Our fear of socialism is in part because we are so compulsively and irrationally protective of the purity of our capitalism. The latter is a fiction to begin with. We have had a mixed system for a long time, and that's the way it should be. We (appropriately) pay for our freeways out of taxes -- that's why they aren't called turnpikes. The fact that they aren't really "free" doesn't and shouldn't bother us, but paying for health care in exactly the same way activates the Europe phobia in too many of our citizens. I see nothing wrong with a mixed system with a sphere of pure capitalism on the top (let Cameron or Spielberg make all the money they want -- buying a ticket to go to the movies is voluntary, as is buying a great speaker system), and a sphere of socialism underneath. The Constitution does not specify what kind of economic system we should have, but does authorize levying taxes. A Spielberg or Cameron work hard at what they do, and get monetary reward in proportion to the number of tickets or Blu-rays/DVDs they sell. Adam Smith might approve of their kind of capitalism, but I wonder if CEOs getting big bonuses for bad -- or criminal -- behavior that damages their businesses might shock the pants off him. Pure we're not. So let's dispense with the phobic behavior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 But, the Dark Secret (at least among the public) is that scores on the GRE don't correlate very well with grades in graduate school because the range of scores becomes truncated, a no no in correlation.Truncated statistical distributions are issues to deal with analytically, but a fact of life in higher education, I agree, and there is a lot of truncation in higher education (and lower education, as well: just look at the cumulative dropout rates from grades 7-12...but that's another subject []).Have you seen the story about the failed applicant to UT (Texas) graduate school going in front of the U.S. Supreme Court to argue that if one is trying to eliminate "racial discrimination" in institutions of higher learning that you should eliminate "race" as a decision variable in admission? Novel approach. I hope English is each applicant's first language rather than incoming knowledge of the field...and aptitude in higher mathematics. [] Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 You know, Ya'll talk real good like.... but can you go live in the woods for a month with nothin' but a spool of fishin line, a huntin' knife, and a blanket? [6] Vocabulary is great, so is edumacation. But as ole' Coolidge said, "The world is full of educated derelicts".... [] On that note, I will be gettin' my GED next week. It was a tough thing to do. I kept flunkin' history cause of the arguments with the history teacher regardin' the "War of Northern Aggreshion"..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 In the words of one of America's geatest linguists, "I reckon so". JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Yassiree!!! [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Mark, Good to see you back here with us common folk. I thought that someone would jump on that one like a duck on a June bug long before you finally did...I guess that most everyone here is either: 1) asleep, 2) tired of arguing, or 3) doesn't pay any attention to my posts (and I suspect that it's this one...) Maybe I should ask to "get inside the firewall" to discuss this sort of topic because it will eventually get the thread locked here (I would wager). But it is interesting, nevertheless. Your Crown amp upgrade thread has really gotten a lot of interest over the last few months. I see many folks that have found used D-45s and D-75As since your original postings. I learned a lot from that experience. Too bad that some of the parts have gone obsolecent since that time. That was a great DIY project. Have you thought about doing a JFET amp--a la Juicy Music style? I'm told that the price of these devices is getting reasonable. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I am deeply involved - up to my eyeballs - in photography these daysIf you have any online galleries that can be browsed by riff raff like me, I'd like to know: I recently reinvested in a new DSLR body (modestly) and am again interested in that sort of stuff.Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Have you seen the story about the failed applicant to UT (Texas) graduate school going in front of the U.S. Supreme Court to argue that if one is trying to eliminate "racial discrimination" in institutions of higher learning that you should eliminate "race" as a decision variable in admission? Novel approach. That would work only if there is not a face to face interview. Also every once in a while, a student will stick a picture in the application envelope .... a secretary could be employed to remove all pictures, before the committe sees the applications. There were face to face interviews for a few of the grad programs I was familiar with --- often in fields where interpersonal skills were necessary, such as Clinical Psychology and Counseling programs. For the record, in those programs, I never detected a whiff of racial discrimination. Its pssible I just missed seeing it. On the other hand both the accounting program and the accounting section of the university administration were accused of discriminating in favor of one broad ethnic group. The accounting section was sued by an applicant of another ethnic group. Ironically both ethnic groups involved have been stereotyped as being either "good with figures" or "good with money." Around campus this case was uneasily referred to as the "What am I, chopped liver?" case. The big question is whether to do something about inequality that occurred in the past, as current applicants were growing up and being educated, from pre-school (if any) up. If we had worked hard on this kind of problem from the '60s and '70s on, inequality of opportunity would no longer be a big issue, and bias in selection would be less than it is. We did some things, but we didn't work very hard. Several generations have gone by since these problems became clear, and we still have the issues. In addition to a lack of will, and a lack of agreement on the solutions, our resources -- and any number of talented people who could have helped -- went elsewhere, especially into war. Long ago Paul Goodman proposed an alternative model for elementary through high school education in the public schools, which he calculated would cost no more per student than was then spent by administration heavy school districts, at least in the cities. Since then some of the features of his proposal have been adopted, but not the key elements that would transform the schools. Because of our culture having become more technical since then, there would have to be some changes, such as using shared computer facilities, labs, etc. His plan back then would have cut administration down to a very low level -- until it cost much less than teaching, rather than more. Seven students and two adults --- one hand selected master teacher, and one graduate student intern (or even an undergraduate intern) would meet every morning in donated space (store fronts, converted garages, whatever) then spend the rest of the day out in the city, at the laboratories, places of business, theaters, concert halls, museums, film and TV studios, parks, etc. The key would be a never ending conversation, in which the students would be exposed to adult lexicon and syntax, analysis and synthesis all day long, much more than would be typical in city school. Everything could be discussed in ways that taught the subject being discussed, as well historical, philosophical, scientific perspectives, methodological issues, etc. Nowadays, a kind of alternation between the conversation and looking things up on hand held electronics would probably be needed, so that all the students would not have their noses in their iPhones and miss the conversation.One example: a pair of teachers in Boonville, CA, quit their jobs and educated their kids this way, while the whole family worked the farm -- discussing, calculating, puting into many perspectives. Despite farm life, they weren't isolated. There were small and big businesses nearby, an artist's colony and highly intellectual population down the road, and a very stimulating newspaper published locally ... on the masthead were the words, "Newspapers should have no friends." The family had both biological and adopted children, and they all got past the standardized testing, and were admitted to prestigious universities, including some in the Ivy League. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 My view of social engineeering is that it can be used both beneficially and destructively - like most tools. So, I am neither for it or against it, but I am for achieving certain human goals by using whatever tools will work best. Yes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Have you read Freakonomics? Especially the chapter called: "Perfect Parenting, Part II, or Would a Roshanda by Any Other Name Smell as Sweet?" Names often communicate race/background. How does one deal with that? For instance: Orangejello and Yellowjello (pronounced "orangelo and yelagelo") are typecast to certain racial profies, unfortunately. Naming your daughter "Sh*thead" (pronounced "shi-'teed") is also typecast...read the book. Chris P.S. I didn't realize that the forum catches reserved words (socially unacceptable but perhaps proper names) and bleeps them out...cool... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Names often communicate race/background. How does one deal with that? If you are talking about admission to grad programs (or college) or hiring, don't use names. The now completely overworked secretaries could match up names with decisions later. Actually, this method is common in reducing bias in everyday college work: Exams, papers, etc., at least out here on the Left Coast (one reason I love it). As far back as the '70s, when I was in grad school, we had to use code names when writing our three hour essay exams (shudder), and on papers for one professor, and on "objective" exams for a few others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Good points Mark, but instead of the economic structure I would say the dearth of responsible communities of responsible elders is the limiting factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Have you read Freakonomics? Especially the chapter called: "Perfect Parenting, Part II, or Would a Roshanda by Any Other Name Smell as Sweet?" Names often communicate race/background. How does one deal with that? For instance: Orangejello and Yellowjello (pronounced "orangelo and yelagelo") are typecast to certain racial profies, unfortunately. Naming your daughter "***" (pronounced "shi-'teed") is also typecast...read the book. Chris P.S. I didn't realize that the forum catches reserved words (socially unacceptable but perhps proper names) and bleeps them out...cool... Sounds more like characters in a Dan Jenkins novel, I wonder if the Freakonomics author borrowed them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted February 25, 2012 Author Share Posted February 25, 2012 And then we have adults determined to complete Grade 10, in spite of their limitations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.