Manifest Destiny is NOT an evil idea...

[Mallette]

Fine line here, guys. Just a friendly reminder.

Please be specific, Sheriff. I'd prefer not to lose this thread if possible. You know me well enough to know I won't step across the line if I know precisely where it is and I am honestly seeing neither religion nor politics and the discussion, though spirited, has been quite civil.

Dave

[Mallette]

Crikey, Amy, I REALLY didn't mean to repeat that three times...[:$]

Dave

[Panacea Engineering]

Dave,

I am sure that it was MY post that stirred the POT and woke the Sheriff up. I will go and open a cold BUD for the BOTH of us, as I digress back into te shadows.............................[H]

[Mallette]

I am sure that it was MY post that stirred the POT and woke the Sheriff up.

Well, I honestly don't know. I really try to police my threads and I cannot find any specific reference to politics, religion, sex or whatever in here. I've yet to have a thread locked by my actions and don't want to start here...especially here.

This isn't a political topic, IMHO. A matter of science and economics. I've only seen one legitimate retort in all 4 pages and that was "don't spend my tax money on it.'

Didn't say what party he was and it doesn't matter.

In any event, I do not want to cross the line but need to know where it is.

Dave

[Amy]

I am sure that it was MY post that stirred the POT and woke the Sheriff up.

Well, I honestly don't know. I really try to police my threads and I cannot find any specific reference to politics, religion, sex or whatever in here. I've yet to have a thread locked by my actions and don't want to start here...especially here.

This isn't a political topic, IMHO. A matter of science and economics. I've only seen one legitimate retort in all 4 pages and that was "don't spend my tax money on it.'

Didn't say what party he was and it doesn't matter.

In any event, I do not want to cross the line but need to know where it is.

Dave

I didn't shut it down because there is nothing to shut down (well, I was a tad offended by the cartoon, but that's gone). I was just cautioning because this topic has a lot of potential. Sometimes I think it's a good idea to make sure y'all know I'm still around. []

Carry on.

[Panacea Engineering]

Amy,

We certainly know you are around and I apologize for the cartoon and MY comment, as it WAS a bit out there.

We ALL appreciate everything that you guys DO for us...........

[ZAKO]

Back on track,,, Mallett wanting greater achevements and further push for the space program,,,I was involved for 30 years in the study of hypersonic aircraft,,,Getting from New York to L,A, in less than one hour...It takes the study of the shape of the aircraft and engine To acheve that goal... So far only a small unmanned aircraft has made that possible,,After several failures,, Only a small amount of funds have been provided when possible from NASA and other sourcess,,, We have only scratched the surface in research for the engine designs,,,,Thats just upper atmosphere travel,,,And we still havent attempted full scale design,,,The funds just arnt there,to ramp up,,,,, WE had five seperate designs going at our company,,,I was privleged to see all designs,, In one of the engineering designs the Vice President of that study threu up his hands.. " maron he said you do it I,m out of engineering ideas"...After observing the other four designs all i was allowed to reply,,,Your engin designs are not sufficient,,,We kept the five departments seperate so they could free their minds of slipping back to old ideas,,, The VASIMR engine is great for for space traval ,,, And will be a step forward in highspeed travel from here to mars,,BUT IT STILL HASNT GOT OFF THE GROUND,,,YET,,,, But i feel its still not fast enough,,,Plus you cant turn on a dime if in danger,,

[jacksonbart]

Us Europeans desendants have a god given right to take land from the red devils, really isn't what this is about?

[ZAKO]

Their is a small tribe at the western border of Brazil,,Still untouched,,..They shoot their arrows at our airplanes...We could wipe them out with one spec of SMALLPOX..

[Mallette]

I didn't shut it down because there is nothing to shut down (well, I was a tad offended by the cartoon, but that's gone). I was just cautioning because this topic has a lot of potential. Sometimes I think it's a good idea to make sure y'all know I'm still around.

Carry on.

Trust me, mam, I see that face in my dreams...[] Best sheriff I've ever known.

More importantly, I fully agree that it could cross the line. I am pretty sure I know it when I see it and will make every effort to keep it on the merits of the proposition alone. Frankly, I don't really care about anything else. I am a [8-|].

Dave

[Mallette]

The VASIMR engine is great for for space traval ,,, And will be a step forward in highspeed travel from here to mars,,BUT IT STILL HASNT GOT OFF THE GROUND,,,YET,,,, But i feel its still not fast enough,,,Plus you cant turn on a dime if in danger,,

I am going to concentrate on this one rather than your work in hypersonics. Hypersonic travel within the atmosphere strikes me as impractical for the foreseeable future...go figure. Further, even if practical, it really doesn't do much other than saving a few hours for the rich. Concorde demonstrated that. []

NERVA was tested under as close as flight conditions as possible in 1970. Created 75,000 lbs of thrust and the first model had 600 minutes of operational time with fully reliable stops and restarts. Outside the atmosphere that much thrust will get you to about as fast as you want to go in a hour or so with plenty of fuel left over.

VASIMR, far more efficient but much less powerful, is being entirely (unless you know something I don't) by private funds. Now how a naturalized Costa Rican kid talks people out of their money for a Buck Rogers engine that's useless unless you have a way to get to LEO is beyond any rationalization to me...but, like the bee flying, he's just down NASA 1 from me and seems to be moving right along. Such papers as are available on the tests of VASIMR suggest size isn't an issue and as the current 200kw devices have been tested thoroughly for several years, multi megawatt versions will do just as well. The current models were to be tested as maneuvring thrusters on the ISS but since we don't have a way to get them there now I suppose that's off.

Those NERVA (actually already paid for) and VASIMR engines are where your tax dollars can return at least 20 to one and are also needed for national security so WHOEVER is out there can expect the US Navy to be around. Besides that, we need them to move that one asteriod back to LEO that will pay for the whole venture many times over and help make YOU even richer.

I mention NERVA because it's old, proven technology that shares nuclear power with VASIMR. Couple them and you cut the travel time to Mars down to weeks while allowing construction of a ship the size of a Trident submarine rather than a cramp can. NERVA gets you going fast, quick, and VASIMR provides microgravity and further acceleration. Great team.

Mallett wanting greater achevements and further push for the space program,,,

Sorry. Was about to post and saw this. What Mallette wants is security for his descendents, more wealth for everybody (and that inclues those already rich), a united world, peace, and being able to die in the knowledge we've achieved true civilization at last.

Nobody seems to be able to understand that once the floodgates of unlimited resources and energy are opened the reasons we go to war will no longer apply. Natural born killers that we are, we don't kill our neighbor and take his stuff when there is plenty to go around.

As with my science, my philosophy here is also fair game if you have a better idea. I stand open to correction.

Dave

[Mallette]

Us Europeans desendants have a god given right to take land from the red devils, really isn't what this is about?

Top knotch. Now, take your meds. Here, take mine, too.

Dave

[ZAKO]

Mallette... AS the Ice melts at the north pole,,Vast resourses in oil will cause elbow jabbing between nations in dividing up the sea floor...and reaping the spoils,,,Friction will cause some military posturing.. As it does now elsewhere,,, Reasons for war come in many ways not fully understood,, But Ive found that a good defence comes from a good offence,,,And is the reason we take it to them,,, Otherwise your children would be goosstepping to school,,, Robotc missions to the planets for now can perform better and cheeper mission findings,,,And saves on the cost of processing urin to drinking water.. The cost of the hubble telescope has provided more scientific answeres than sending out probes past our solor system,, And will soon be replaced by even a better one,,, But for a CUM BA YAH happier home planet with out wars..I dont see that happening, My scars remind me to allways stay vigilent

[Amy]

Amy,

We certainly know you are around and I apologize for the cartoon and MY comment, as it WAS a bit out there.

We ALL appreciate everything that you guys DO for us...........

No worries

[Mallette]

Mallette... AS the Ice melts at the north pole,,Vast resourses in oil will cause elbow jabbing between nations in dividing up the sea floor...and reaping the spoils,,,Friction will cause some military posturing.. As it does now elsewhere,,, Reasons for war come in many ways not fully understood,, But Ive found that a good defence comes from a good offence,,,And is the reason we take it to them,,, Otherwise your children would be goosstepping to school,,,

Why participate? If we control the unlimited resources of the solar system and the high ground as well our national defense is assured without having to resort to MAD. Being the last person alive in a lifeboat with all the food and water gone strikes me a s a rather hollow victory.

Robotc missions to the planets for now can perform better and cheeper mission findings,,,And saves on the cost of processing urin to drinking water.. The cost of the hubble telescope has provided more scientific answeres than sending out probes past our solor system,, And will soon be replaced by even a better one,,, But for a CUM BA YAH happier home planet with out wars..I dont see that happening, My scars remind me to allways stay vigilent

I love science...but what I've written has to do with much more practical matters like survival. Robotic missions for science? 100% for it. Let's team up NERVA and VASIMR with a boatload of science gadgets and get it off to one of the nearby solar systems so our grandchildren can actually see another world(s) up close and perhaps decide if a multi-generational mission to settle those worlds is desirable. However, unless we take care of our own needs there won't be anyone left after the resource wars you mentioned to learn from the results.

As to the solar system, having a robot sending back images of a big pile of fissionables or precious metals, or helium 3 doesn't do me much good unless you can get it to where it is needed.

While I understand the giggle factor about warp drives, Buck Rogers, etc, I do not understand why folks can't seem to grasp the idea that most of the technology required to do everything I've been talking about is DECADES OLD! The Saturn rocket wasn't "new," it was simply Von Braun's V2 rocket on a reasonable budget, an even that didn't strain our taxes to a significant degree. If you don't think we've learned anything in the past 50 years look at your cell phone. What's the biggest constraint on building a nuclear reactor? It's the containment system. Stick it in a small, deep crater on the moon and you don't need no stinking containment system.and it will provide megawatts of power for whatever you want to do. I rather doubt Bob Crites pays attention to these threads, but as a retired nuclear engineer I'll bet the idea of building a nuclear power plant relieved of the constraints of this earth would make his mouth water.

Again, I invite anyone to refute any of the science of the above, or tell me what their children will be eating when the soylent green runs out (and "let them eat cake" is already taken).

Dave

[Marvel]

I was involved for 30 years in the study of hypersonic aircraft,,,Getting from New York to L,A, in less than one hour...It takes the study of the shape of the aircraft and engine To acheve that goal... So far only a small unmanned aircraft has made that possible,,After several failures

Cool! The last company I worked for, before working here at this smal, private college, was working for a small guvmint contractor here in Chattanooga. We did neural netwrok desgn for flight controllers for the X-plane and other uses. Now they are doing more signal processing and plasma transient surge supression devices. Most of our funding was from NASA, Navy and Air Force through the SBIR program.

Love this discussion.

As an aside, I appreciated the humorous, quirky, short lived TV series Firefly. One of the things I liked best was that there were NO aliens. Just us in space, 500 years in the future. It may not have had much real science on display, but it seemed far more possible than Star Trek stuff.

Bruce

[Panacea Engineering]

The technology that is fed to the general public, is a good twenty five years behind what is actuallyb going on, behind the veil of Black. That is a very conservative estimate. We ain't as dumb as we apear...................

[Mallette]

The technology that is fed to the general public, is a good twenty five years behind what is actuallyb going on, behind the veil of Black. That is a very conservative estimate. We ain't as dumb as we apear...................

<p>The technology that is fed to the general public, is a good twenty five years behind what is actuallyb going on, behind the veil of Black. That is a very conservative estimate. We ain't as dumb as we apear...................</p>

Agree...but it's all speculation and/or conspiracy stuff.

Here's a list of "giggle factor" stuff that may well have legs:

Big Black Deltas

BBD's have been seen since at least the mid-90s all over the world. What is difficult to dispute is the near perfect consistency of a very large triangle with a light at each corner and a larger colored one in the center, and that it is dead silent. In the vast majority of sightings it does nothing "alien" like sudden turning and disappearing...though occasionally accelerates and moves away at high speeds. In recent years, it's been dubbed the "TR-3b" and merged with the "Aurora" as successor to the SR-71 reconnaissance aircraft. My father in law saw it out in Arizona and his description fit others perfectly. Oddly, he's an Art Bell conspiracy freak but had never heard of BBDs and didn't think this to be an alien craft or anything because it didn't do anything bizarre. Run "TR-3B" for info. Of course, there is a lot of nut stuff but if you sift it you can find some rather interesting speculation on the technology that may be used that doesn't sound so weird...but the main thing is the shear volume of consistent sightings of this thing by credible sources.

NERVA

This NASA project, the Nuclear Engine for Rocket Vehicle Application, was canned in 1973 after achieving stellar success at developing 75,000lbsf thrust and being stopped and restarted successfully under simulated flight conditions. It was to succeed the Saturn upper stage to provide rapid, low cost lunar transits as well as reach Mars by 1978. It was cancelled by the Nixon admin as the beginning of the end of our public manned space program. Some "conspiracists" suggest it was simply taken black and has been used regularly ever since. Okies, that's what conspiracists do, isn't it?

Aurora

Hypersonic successor to the SR-71 and subject of lots of "donut contrail" photos for a long time. Given the performance differential between the U2 and the SR-71, not really a great leap of imagination. Lately, Aurora and TR-3b have merged in the "chatter" as the shapes are the same and the main difference is scale.

Of course, there are more, but these three represent "no aliens required" possible examples of classified technology that doesn't violate the laws of physics. Granted, the explanation of the warping of gravity by the TR-3B mercury plasma engines is pretty spacey, but not the Star Trek type warp drive that warps space itself. The physics are sound enough. Also, it isn't the "giggle factor " anti-gravity as it doesn't repulse gravity and is an advanced application of the well established Biefeld-Brown effect.

Personally, I find it hard to believe that our national leadership, regardless of party, would abandon the high ground to the rest of the world after decades of expenditure of our blood and treasure. If we have not done so then the "why" of secrecy and how long that veil will remain in place is the big question.

Or all of the above is just swamp gas like they told us...

Dave

PS - Due to the amount of pure BS and conspiracist crappola I've not included links on the above items. Careful parsing of a search can reveal some useful information in all the fog, however, for those who are interested.

[Don Richard]

Personally, I find it hard to believe that our national leadership, regardless of party, would abandon the high ground to the rest of the world after decades of expenditure of our blood and treasure. If we have not done so then the "why" of secrecy and how long that veil will remain in place is the big question.

Right now we have been and are in a world-wide economic downturn. It is hard for politicians to politically justify long range expenditures when constituents are losing their jobs and their homes, and are howling for relief. This is going on not only in our country but also in Europe. Great Britain now has a law that limits research funding to projects that will have an immediate effect in the industrial sector, in an effort to put people to work. Stephen Hawking laments the fact that this is being done. He is in favor of increased funding for space exploration, saying the following before he took a zero gravity flight in the "vomit comet" a few years ago:

"Many people have asked me why I am taking this flight. I am doing it for many reasons. First of all, I believe that life on Earth is at an ever-increasing risk of being wiped out by a disaster such as sudden nuclear war, a genetically engineered virus, or other dangers. I think the human race has no future if it doesn't go into space. I therefore want to encourage public interest in space."

[Panacea Engineering]

Dave,

I would have hoped, that your sources for the above post, would have at least been a notch or two above Popular Science bunk/crap....again, I digress