Manifest Destiny is NOT an evil idea...

[Mallette]

Yes, we took the land we live on from the native inhabitants and that was less than glorius. But the idea that the United States had a destiny to become a bastion of freedom, liberty and the last, best hope of mankind was and remains the greatest of human aspirations. For some of us, manifest destiny represents that idea that this once beautiful, green planet was never intended to be our home from cradle to grave and that "...go forth and multiply..." means more than just over populating this tired, ruined Eden.

I have lost interest in our national elections as our leadership seems interested only in personal power and in nothing of real, lasting value.

The defining moment for all humanity came at 4:17:40 P.M., Eastern daylight time on 21 July, 1969 when all the peoples of this planet cheered as the Eagle landed on the moon. For that moment all humanity stood united as one as we looked up at the moon that night in the wonder of realization that we'd taken the first step towards becoming a mature species.

Then we turned inward and with ever increasing focus on our navels began to expend our blood, treasure, and future on transitory goals of little value to us and no value to humanity.

I am past "What are they THINKING?" and simply do not have a clue. There are no problems on this Earth not soluable by the exploration and settlement of space, and I mean none. Whether medical, resources, food, the environment...whatever your pet interest...the answer is not in completeing the destruction and desecration of Mother Earth.

But don't take my word for it. Maybe Neil Degrasse Tyson can make you think

If it does, then consider this: http://penny4nasa.org/Penny4NASA/Home.html.

The March of Dimes ended polio, a great victory. A penny from each our our federal tax dollars is critical to ensuring the survival our our children and their descendents, and a chance for this planet to heal.

Without it, there will be no hope of "...life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." With it, there are no limits.

Dave

[Don Richard]

All of this occurred when people began to say, "Why go into space when people on Earth are hungry, dying of disease, etc, etc." So they got on their computers, watched talk shows on their HDTV, and raised a ruckus about $600 screwdrivers and the like. So NASA's budget was cut. Since NASA's budget has been reduced, people are still hungry, dying of disease, etc, etc.

Isn't it ironic that so many things that enrich our lives, so many things that help increase food production, so many medical breakthroughs are the result of technology developed by NASA. Because of space exploration integrated circuits, microprocessors, space age polymers and many more discoveries were put into the public domain. Without this sort of development, future efforts to feed people and cure diseases will be hampered. Ironic and so sad.

[Mallette]

Yeah, DR. I tracked one of those 600 dollar screwdrivers one time. Turned out to be a bargain. It's demagogues like the Arkansas guy who single handedly killed the Super Conducting Super Collider who put that kind of stuff out there with no context. Of course there are cost overruns! Designing the first of anything that has never been built isn't something you can predict precisely. There was almost NO technology in the SCSC that wasn't brand new, as with the Apollo, the Shuttle, the ISS, and now with the Webb Space Telescope. It's why we refer to space as a "frontier."

Of course, I'm sure a nice Chinese made Stanley screwdriver would work just fine in space, as would a toilet from Home Depot. [bs]

In any event, we spent more on TARP than we've spent on NASA in it's entire history. Wonder which had the better ROI...

The very WORST ROI figures I've ever seen still showed NASA as the single greatest ROI engine our tax dollars have ever been spent for.

I think the second was WWII. Personally, I remain for the first option.

Dave

[Fjd]

In any event, we spent more on TARP than we've spent on NASA in it's entire history. Wonder which had the better ROI...

Dave

In addition, our fundamental societal values seem to be changing when the “markets" place a value of $100 billion on Facebook.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-23/facebook-insiders-limit-ipo-by-pushing-100-billion-value-tech.html

Facebook then spends $1 billion to buy Instagram, which is a free photo sharing program launched in October 2010 that allows users to take a photo, apply a digital filter to it, and then share it on the social networking services.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/story/2012-04-09/facebook-instagram/54134668/1

[Mallette]

In addition, our fundamental societal values seem to be changing when the “markets" place a value of $100 billion on Facebook.

Even is a person is so short sighted as to not be able to see the essential nature of space exploration to human expansion and survival, they should at least appreciate the economic advantage.

I don't think it too much of a stretch to note the economic decline of this country...which we've been told we need to adjust to and accept...seems to track our withdrawal from an active space program pretty much precisely.

Going back as far as Rome history records that nations who cease to expand, contract. There is no such thing as "stasis" for an economy. As imperial conquest is out of style (and good riddance) we can either expand into space or into cooking hamburgers for the world.

Much of our technological lead came from the space program. Today it's coming from Facebook. Yeah, that bothers me.

Dave

[Daddy Dee]

Dave thanks for your post and the links. Degrassi makes some powerful points, especially on the relative bargan of NASA. It's not a question of "can we afford it?" It's a question of "can we afford not to do it?"

Saw this on last night's Jon Stewart: http://www.hulu.com/watch/349285/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-elon-musk#s-p1-sr-i1

Elon Musk is the founder of Paypal, Tesla Motors and SpaceX. He's hired quite a few astronauts and engineers from NASA to do what he is doing. He's got the dream.

[JJkizak]

Remember that during that time our economy was so strong that we spent more money on yellow paint on the highways than other countries whole budgets.

JJK

[Mallette]

Indeed, JJ. Dollars spent on space generated enormous profit and just as important created a worldwide image of America as THE place for science, technology, and engineering.

Now, we are the place for Walmart and McDonalds. I do not want to believe that we've become so fat, happy, and passive we no longer have aspirations to lead. You cannot feed the world by simply giving away food. You will run out and not be able to buy more. You feed the world by developing new technologies and resources for the future. Lunar minerals alone that are already known to be there right on the surface would supercharge our economy beyond calculation.

We are neither leading, nor following, nor getting out of the way.

For those of the "...but we have so many problems here on Earth variety" fine, spend 99 cents of very dollar with a lot of it going down terrestrial black holes...but why not spend a penny on the future?

Dave

[ZAKO]

Just dont dig into my wallet for your space asperations...Leave it to the private secter to to do this,, it will be cheaper..Otherwise GSA will have more money to party in Vegas

[Mallette]

Just dont dig into my wallet for your space asperations...Leave it to the private secter to to do this,, it will be cheaper..Otherwise GSA will have more money to party in Vegas

So, you support the rich getting richer and the rest of us spending our money on Afganistan and the DEA?

My new heros are Rutan, Musk, Branson, Diamondis, and others. They are putting their money where the collective dreams of those of us who believe in our species and that it should actually someday create a real civilization without war, hunger, or limits. By the end of this century one or more of these ventures will make Apple, Exxon, and the like look like mom and pop shops. Those who want their children to be well off would do well to purchase a small amount of stock in all who will sell it, as only a single hit will eventually return incredible profits. And, while the spinoff to all humans will be wonderful, it's the investors and owners will profit in an enormous way both in raw riches as well as the power of controlling the gateway to the resources of space that will become increaseingly essential as we complete the destruction of this planet in the next century or so.

However, national security, science, and government should be involved as well. As to "digging into your pocket" for a few bucks a year that return the extraordinary returns on investment (again, even by the very most conservative and critical estimates) I can't help but ask where you would prefer a penny on the dollar of your taxes be spent? If you know ways to use tax dollars more effectively to create more jobs, more opportunities for business, enhance national security, and generally promote the future for our children I am all ears.

The only use of tax dollars I've ever heard being compared to the space programs returns was World War II.

Dave

PS - Peter Diamandis shares your view. Why would he want to share a 20 trillion dollar haul with you? Check it out at around 2:10 seconds into the clip.

[ZAKO]

Just because you screwed yourself away from the dinner table and cant support your kids,,Dont expect my tax dollers to send your kids to school...As far as wars,,,My dad died on a merchant ship sending food and supplies to europe when it was torpedoed by Hitlers subs,, It cost over 10 billion dollers to collect those moon rocks,,,Let your childrens children eat those rocks,,, Yes i support the rich,,I,m one of them,,,And i feed many many children in my company,,I love the Capitalistic way and not the socialistic way..

[Mallette]

Excellent, Maron. We're in line on just about everything except human survival. I am for it.

Dave

[seti]

Actually the biggest problem I see is that this we can not plan anything further out than 4 years. You can't do much in four years. The Chinese and some Arab nations have multigenerational goals and plans for the future.

[JJkizak]

Well lets see now the space program got us thefollowing things:

1...Internet (NASA IN 1968)

2...Computer mouse 1969

3...Miniture electronics

4...Digital media

5...Computer processors

6...Networks for communication

7...High speed printers

8...Hard drives

9...Advances in metalurgy

10..Advances in medicine

11..Unix

JJK

[Islander]

Actually the biggest problem I see is that this we can not plan anything further out than 4 years. You can't do much in four years. The Chinese and some Arab nations have multigenerational goals and plans for the future.

I agree, but can any of the multi-ethnic nations, like those in North America and much of Europe, sustain a collective vision that could take generations to achieve?

That's one of the few advantages that monocultural nations ruled by despots can show.

[Mallette]

Well lets see now the space program got us thefollowing things:

1...Internet (NASA IN 1968)

2...Computer mouse 1969

3...Miniture electronics

4...Digital media

5...Computer processors

6...Networks for communication

7...High speed printers

8...Hard drives

9...Advances in metalurgy

10..Advances in medicine

11..Unix

JJK

12. Dave's job.

The computer industry is largely built on top of byproducts of our space program, mainly Apollo.

My job is in the fossil fuel drilling business. Can't get further from space than that without going back to wood for fuel (ratz. We already used all that). However, without cutting edge PCs my job wouldn't exist.

Oh, we'd have developed them by now but I am certain we'd be well behind where we are.

Dave

[Mallette]

While I REALLY try to limit myself in my threads, often without success, when I am this passionate about something I flat fail. I must draw a simple scenario based on first hand knowledge from NASA and NASA related scientists I know personally and well...and you can take this information on whether you believe Dave or not because I won't even leave a clue as to who they are. The reason is simple. The current official climate in DC is that we are only doing as little anything in space as we can...except for the military...and anybody with a NASA or NASA related job who says what the REALLY think will find themselves looking for a job.

Compared to "generations," the time span for making our economy explode with prosperity and giving this nation world leadership, probably not forever, but for far longer than it has left at the moment, is about 20 years.

We've added X trillion (somebody fill that in if you wish) to the national debt in the past few years and I'm danged if I can see that it changed anything to the tune of what one would expect for that much indetedness. If all it bought us was stasis for a couple of years, what's it going to take to maintain a percent or 2 GDP growth per year? And that while the nations who are still motivated are in the double digits? I am no math wizard, but that is not really deep math.

So, what can we do?

Let's say we require the best ROI possible for any further national indebtedness. From some minds I trust completely, I have been reliably informed that if we partnered with the commercial space industry and cleared the land, our "golden age" would suddenly pale.

Here's the scenario, from various sources:

Let commerce handle LEO and simply set cost per pound to orbit charges we feel achievable and reasonably achievable.

Enlarge and make permanent the ISS.

Build a lunar landing craft with significant cargo capability.

Establish a lunar outpost.

Build a solar powered linear electric motor to make returning people or cargo to the Earth very, very cheap.

Pause to remind all that a couple of years ago Lcross established it as fact that the moon is ROTTEN with easily retrieved water. My sources say that reduces cost and complexity of a lunar colony by 90% immediately and ensures that can be made self sustaining in no more than 10 years.

Subsidize the development of deep space engines such as the well proven VASIMR.

Drawing on our extraordinary record with small reactors built for our Navy, subsidize the development of small, sealed reactors to provide power for the VASIMR related engine technology.

At that point, we have reduced the cost of achieving LEO by 90% or more over the shuttle using the commercial option and have what we need to build ships of any size we wish that will have free run of the solar system just like our nuclear naval vessels do of the sea. Ad Astra, a commercial concern not 10 miles from here, has demonstrated 200kw engines that, if scaled to 2 megawatts or so, can achieve 30 day trips to Mars. Coupled with a nuclear reactor they would be able to cruise the solar system pretty much at will with whatever size ships we wished to build.

With easy, low cost access to all the resources of the solar system the profits roll in. I mentioned earlier that reliable (and public) estimates of the worth of a single small asteriods resources would be 20 trillion. I think we'd have our money back at this point, with profit.

BTW, the fuel for those reactors comes from the moon, so don't sweat trying to launch radioactive stuff to LEO.

We use that profit to build space elevators as required to get the cost to LEO down to every person who needs a job.

After that, all bets are off as to what homo sapiens acheives.

Everything above is supported by known, credible, and established science and I am open to anyone proving otherwise other than "well, if it's such a good idea why isn't anyone persuing it?"

I don't have an answer for that.

Or we can just keep borrowing from our children until the rest of the world cuts us off.

Dave

[Audible Nectar]

Actually the biggest problem I see is that this we can not plan anything further out than 4 years. You can't do much in four years. The Chinese and some Arab nations have multigenerational goals and plans for the future.

Seti -

In today's American Corporate Universe, 4 years is too long of a time to look forward. It's all about the QUARTER. THREE MONTHS. Short term profit and loss, baybee....that's all that counts anymore.

[Mallette]

In today's American Corporate Universe, 4 years is too long of a time to look forward. It's all about the QUARTER. THREE MONTHS. Short term profit and loss, baybee....that's all that counts anymore.

Precisely why we are in decline with no change in sight. My parents were WWII/depression era and their focus was a better world for thier children. Our focus is a bigger foreign made TV.

At this rate, we won't even have that.

Dave

[Islander]

No disrespect intended, but sometimes current American politics seems like the lab animals who keep pulling each other off the ladder, so nobody gets to the top before the others, with the result that nobody gets to the top at all.

America and Americans could do great things if they decided to pull together for the benefit of all, but that would call for a new vision and a new spirit of co-operation.