ZAKO Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 "If they decide to pull togrther for the benefit of all,,,,,,,,That sounds like collective thinking,,, STALIN would have loved you.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 No, Stalin wanted everyone to pull together for the benefit of Stalin. A shared national vision can be achieved in the context of a democracy; it just hasn't been lately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Stalinism developed by Stalin from Marxism - Leninism and characterized by rigid authoritarianism with widespred use of terror and often by emphaasis on collective nationalism Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 No disrepect intended, but sometimes current American politics seems like the lab animals who keep pulling each other off the ladder, so nobody gets to the top before the others, with the result that nobody gets to the top at all. America and Americans could do great things if they decided to pull together for the benefit of all, but that would call for a new vision and a new spirit of co-operation. That would really make me mad, a few years back.Now I think it is kinda true, a house or Country or world divided cannot stand.That said...the world could do great things if not forever fighting over foolish notions.After all the world has been through you think we would learn something.There is no Country with clean hands as long as places like North Korea have prisons where children can be born and die as slaves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted April 13, 2012 Author Share Posted April 13, 2012 A shared national vision can be achieved in the context of a democracy; it just hasn't been lately Perhaps we are missing something we once had? Tyson is the real deal. He is a media figure who's best course is to feed the government and the Lords and Ladies of the 1% what they want to hear and what they feed us. However, the truth of the impact on this nation and humanity as a whole of our failure to tap the unlimited resources we have technologically readily available to us is so crystal clear and undebatable he's made the choice to speak the truth. The vast majority of our best minds have learned what it means to their careers to do this and remain silent. The probably percieved as "space cadet stuff" scenario I wrote below contains absolutely nothing not easily acheiveable with existing technology. Yet people will read it on their iPhones, which wouldn't have been predicted by the wildest mind of 1969, and yet somehow believe it's all fantasy even thought we sent a bleeding CAR to the moon and made it look easy and fun 40 years ago. Tyson's piece on that says the first trillionaire will get there through space is so "DUH" it's laughable to anyone who actually hears what he is trying to say. I am big on people getting rich, and just fine with a trillionaire because there is no limits...that's why we call it "infinite"...to what we can do once we wake up. Maron, your initial response was less than enthused. You made a point that you were rich and doing your part and wanted nothing to do with such ventures. I've no quarrel with that. However, what's your problem with yourself, your children and the rest of us getting richer? The scenario I described is every bit as sound as science. Anyone who disagrees is welcome to post the proof. Dang shame we can't get scientific evidence for the best stocks to buy... Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 My grand father fought in the first world war,,In the trenches and was gassed,, The burning gas scarred his back and bullits ripped out his kidny,,,He survived and raised 4 children sending them to private schools,,, He made his fortune in making special hand made shoes for deformrd feet.. No one size fits all here...Our family didnt care for the public school system and social thinking taught there.. The dumbing down of students was rampet,, You wont get rich collectively,,You have to cut your own bread,,,What I,m saying is asking us to collectivly pool our financial reseorces to go back to the moon or elseware,,,Should now be turned over to private industry,,,If they find gold or mine diamonds fine,,,But the way it is now Our gov, Will spend billions to bring back A ounce of water Pissed out by a anciant astronaut,,, If you want that gold or diamonds,, BUY your own ticket to the moon and dig your own hole..When my grand father died (We Grand Children ) Paid the hospital bills and paid for the funeral expenses,,Thats the least we could do for him,,, And didnt ask for a national health care system to take that responsability... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted April 13, 2012 Author Share Posted April 13, 2012 Okies, Maron, while my personal opinion is that your take on this is short sighted, it's valid enough if almost as niche as my own. The opening of the American west, which made us the richest, most powerful country the world has ever seen, was a partnership between entreprenuers and the government. There are endless examples, but the railroads are the biggest. The were built by private investors with land grants from the rest of us so they could get rich and we could go west and prosper. I suspect your grandfather's fortune might have been less if he'd not had the railroads built because of land grants from US that allowed his products to get to market at a cost his market could afford. You see anything different in what we collectively need to do to in order to profit from the wealth that lies in the west of today? I've no way of knowing whether your grandfather did what he did from pure profit motive or if he also had some desire to serve humankind and profit as well. But there is no question that the actions of our government at that time benefited him in his efforts. Private industry WILL do it...it will just take much longer time and the rest of us will have to wait much longer for the "trickle down." While I respect your position, the logic eludes me. BTW, I just got back from picking up prescriptions. Living where I do I wound up talking to a high ranking person in the space program. Given I didn't ask his name it only took a couple of minutes for him to turn red with frustration and inability to comprehend why what he knows as the single most critical task of this nation and humanity in general is not only being ignored but actively undermined. Maron, I don't know if you have children or care about thier future, but we are now borrowing against a future we are doing absolutely nothing to ensure. When you or I borrow money we do so only after ensuring we can pay it back. If you have some ideas how we are going to do that given we've already settled the west, exploited our resources, and stopped looking for new frontiers I am all ears. It isn't enough to object. One should offer an alternative. Just telling us all to go stake a claim to long gone land, plow the ground, sow seed, and bake our own bread is a fantasy. We need a railroad to get there and get our produce to market. Entreprenuers can build it, but they need our help to do it just like before. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 OPENING THE WEST,,,How interesting,,,,You forget it was inhabitate by other people... The MOSKOVITES did the same thing,,,And expanded east.. and took TEN TIME ZONES,,, The RUSS,s assimalated with the people of other regions and even took on that language,,,,,You talk about new frontiers,,, Let the private sector decide that,,,We have a Fedralism that takes your tax doller and states you can have some of it back to use in your STATE IF you meet thier requirement,, Privat industry did a better job in the airline indistry,,,The trucking industry did better than the rail road industry,,,The Feds mandated a railroad passenger system that was out dated,,,The railroad owners just let it wither and die,, The Feds now run that part at a loss,, The Children of my side of the family are doing fine,,,,But would rather die in the gutter without asking for government support,,,That would take tax dollers from others more in need then they,,,But lucky for them The children will survive passing on a system the govt cant touch,, NO we really dont need a Govt, supported space program,,,,, IF we can make a profit from the 4 rock planets and their moons let the private sector take advantage of it,,,AT LEAST They wont be pushing the Indians on moon reservations.. AS far as my grand fathers shoe bussiness his customer hobbled directly to him and he personally measured there feet and made wood models of the feet,, so they could forever get a perfect fit,,,And he personally whent back to them to put them on their feet.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted April 13, 2012 Author Share Posted April 13, 2012 OK, Maron. As a person of American indian ancestry, I have to agree with at least part of what you are saying. Let's leave it at that. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Dave,,, Yes We are a nation within a nation,,,One truely defeated,, But not Truely lost...But witch one ???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boxx Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Well guy's... I will tell you this.. I have enjoyed reading both sides of the argument and both "points of view." Well done... If I had more energy, I would give some input... lol... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted April 14, 2012 Author Share Posted April 14, 2012 Given two generations have gone by without the almost monthly advances and new designs of the first decade of our space program I suppose the scenario I proposed seems pretty "Star Wars" fantasy like. It's not. As I said, it's based on a variety of input from some of the best minds in the business and contains no fantasy technology. We'd be where I put us in 20 years right now if we'd kept it up, and the economy would not be an issue. Our standard of living would be much higher and continuing to rise, and we probably wouldn't be in Afghanistan was a piece of a major pie is something most nations prefer to war. While I am major proponent of private industry in space and daily follow Elon Musk, Burt Rutan, and others I don't understand the resistance to taxpayer participation in opening the frontier and establishing government there. We will need a naval precense in space as well as infrastructure. I think the argument I made about the railroads is a good one. It was the taxpayers that funded the right of way for those railroads and without that impetus it would have been decades before private industry could justify the cost and risk of building them. They don't come much more conservative than I, but there is a place for government in expansion. We take the highways for granted, but how many would vote to pull out government money and turn them all over to private industry? I suppose what gets me is that most are completely apathetic. At least Maron pushes back passionately...fer cryin' out loud the guy is at least ALIVE! What's the matter with everybody else???? Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted April 14, 2012 Author Share Posted April 14, 2012 Dave,,, Yes We are a nation within a nation,,,One truely defeated,, But not Truely lost...But witch one ???? Both, Maron. Both. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 Can someone explain how Manifest Destiny turned into a Socialist vs Capitalist argument? All I gotta say on that note is the more I read the book of Acts, the more attractive that kind of society model becomes...I don't think it fits into either category, but it'd probably be more socialist than capitalist... Anyways, humans are lazy and won't get together to expand our horizons until it is felt necessary. A quick look throughout history shows this trend. The original space program was all about the cold war - the reason it stopped is because those threats subsided. The original "invaders" to America were fleeing religious persecution and famine. My prediction is that an energy crisis will be the worldwide motivator before we start exploring our neighboring planets. I suppose it could be all sorts of other things as well. But based on the current state of affairs, I think it's gonna be a long time before any of that happens though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 My Step Father was not a gambling man,,,,But he took advantage of the situation,, When Las Vegas was in its earley development,,,He was one of five that put together the Hasienda Corp,,,A group that supplied all the GAMBLING TABLES to the Powers at be,,in vegas ,,,,, A one town industry ,,Not well diversified in other type of money making...Unless you were a pimp....Thats the way I look at all polatitions,,,They will take your money and guarantee youd get screwd,,, Mom followed him out to Vegas,,I didnt follow,,,She said life out there was good,,,CHICKEN ONE DAY, AND FEATHERS THE NEXT..Thats whats happening today,,,As we recover from a deep recession,, We need to recover and decide where we want to go,,,I dont think it will be down the same road,,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 I agree with you Mike,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted April 14, 2012 Author Share Posted April 14, 2012 Can someone explain how Manifest Destiny turned into a Socialist vs Capitalist argument? All I gotta say on that note is the more I read the book of Acts, the more attractive that kind of society model becomes...I don't think it fits into either category, but it'd probably be more socialist than capitalist... Anyways, humans are lazy and won't get together to expand our horizons until it is felt necessary. A quick look throughout history shows this trend. The original space program was all about the cold war - the reason it stopped is because those threats subsided. The original "invaders" to America were fleeing religious persecution and famine. My prediction is that an energy crisis will be the worldwide motivator before we start exploring our neighboring planets. I suppose it could be all sorts of other things as well. But based on the current state of affairs, I think it's gonna be a long time before any of that happens though. Yeah, I am with you and Maron here. I hate seeing this nation in economic decline, and so easily averted. This nation's rise was driven by expansion, abundant resources, and a government that invested in the infrastructure to power private industry. Like it or not, it was projects like the railroads, the Panama Canal, TVA, the great hydro projects in the west, the Interstate system, and the space program that powered our rise to the top economically. The space program returned many times the investment even though it really never did anything, given that it was abandoned short of actually achieving a beachhead. Granted, the ISS is something. Even shrunk as it was from the original vision I am grateful it was built. Without it, private industry would have much less impetus to develop manned craft and the situation would be even worse than it is. You are definitely correct about energy and other resources eventually forcing us to do what we should be doing anyway. We've ruined this planet and used up much of it's resources. When things get bad enough we will go. Unfortunately, if the US still exists it will likely be just a spectator hoping for a handout because, as you suggest, it will be a few decades before things start getting really rough and at our current rate of decline we'll have neither the prowess nor the money to do the job. I may be too pessimistic. Private industry is really gearing up and some really super designs are being developed and tested. Given the infinite potential for profit it WILL happen. As to the Manifest Destiny thing, it may have been a poor choice of title. Certainly the US of the 19th century can hardly be described as "socialist" and it was that enlightened policy of the use of federal funds and power to expand the frontiers and grow the economy I was trying to invoke. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhoak Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 I truly believe that it is mankind’s “destiny” to reach out to the stars. Whether this is a result of necessity (a depleted planet) or pure research remains to be seen. I do think that there are a few things that need to happen before we embark on such a journey. It’s simply not going to happen under our currently VERY fragmented “political” environment. I don’t know if it’s going to take a “world government” or maybe “regional” cooperation but I do know that no nation on earth can afford anything approaching the HUGE costs of an interplanetary mission at this time or for the foreseeable future. Perhaps I’ve read WAY too much science fiction but I also think that humans will not expand beyond our planet until we have contact with other extraterrestrial civilizations. I believe it’s going to require the technology boost supplied by other worlds before we will be able to venture outside of our system. Of course I’m one of the maybe 6 or 7 people on the planet that thinks that Einstein got it completely wrong and that time, space, and velocity are completely unrelated from one another. On the other hand I know that I drink too much… ERRR… I meant to say I think too much. so what do I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 Jhoak....I think your biting off more than you can chew,,er drink,,, I wouldnt reach out further than our own STAR,, yet,,,As far as reaching out further you would need something moving as fast as ,,or near,, The speed of light...But even that is too too slow,,,Take plenty of toilet paper.. So far, poundining at Einstein Will only just ask for more questions..And more to resolve,,Space/time is realy realy realy realy realy realy realy realy realy realy realy realy LARGE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted April 14, 2012 Author Share Posted April 14, 2012 I truly believe that it is mankind’s “destiny” to reach out to the stars. Whether this is a result of necessity (a depleted planet) or pure research remains to be seen. It does? What's your plan for adding land, food, and resources? I am interested in research and consider it noble. But I have been talking about survival. What's the plan to contain an infinitely expanding population in a finite space? I believe it’s going to require the technology boost supplied by other worlds before we will be able to venture outside of our system. IF there are such intelligences they will have developed their technology by a superior evolution that provided them with a will to survive. What's our excuse? Why should they care about a bunch of monkeys too dumb to find food? I've not been talking about the Enterprise and seeking out strange new worlds here, just using garden variety already mature technology to make ourselves rich and provide opportunities for emerging nations to join with us in the peaceful pursuit of commerce, trade, and expansion. No Buck Rogers stuff. While intersteller travel is a super cool thought I have been talking about practical issues than we have the technology to deal with right now. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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