Forte I/Decware SE 84 C-S - Magic!

[michaelhigh]

Finally bit the bullet. One can only hear repeatedly, year after year, ad nauseum, how good fleapower tube/Klipsch combos can be, and year after year I put it off. I'd remain satisfied with nice big Sansuis, Pioneers I lusted for in the 70's when I couldn't afford a stereo to save my life. But, the audio gods knew my heart and my desire to finally experience the beauty of what the audiophiles have known so totally for so long now, even before the big solid state audio boom of the 70's and the effect on mass mentality that all the units moved during that golden era had on music lovers. It took me this long to afford it. It took me this long to find a unit I could afford, facilitated by the generosity and trust of our friend sheltie dave (I just named him "The Tube Enabler"!) He has world-class taste and the gear to match, and when I heard he was making room in his repertoire to include some fine 50's turntables to add to his impressive spread, I lined up to be the benefactor of his effort to move the piece that's the subject of this post. He blessed me with my first SET integrated designed for two-channel listening. I've dabbled in bass gear that featured tubes since the 70's but my Klipsch Fortes were just begging for this gift, and what a gift it was. Different and better in every single way, is how I'd describe it in perfect detail. The variety of music I've heard in the last hour or 2 has convinced me that I definitely waited entirely too long. Now that the sheer emotionality of the experience is under control I can honestly say that I'm hearing my Fortes for the first time thanks to Dave. Everyone should have someone like The Tube Enabler (sheltie dave) for a friend, he's the best. Deal with him and the experience will be flawless, and with his expertise you can't go wrong. Thanks, Dave.

[Dennie]

Very Cool!

Dennie

[Audio Android]

Congratulations!!! I just spent some time on the Decware site. I think the DIY amp kits are in my future.

[tube fanatic]

It's no surprise that you had such a "jaw dropping" experience! I frequently encounter the same thing when demonstrating varioius SEP or SET amps for people who are accustomed to solid state amplification. Now that you have experienced the difference, try a pair of mono SET amps if you have the opportunity. By eliminating the crosstalk inherent in any stereo unit sharing a common power supply between the 2 channels, you will take listening to the next dimension- i.e. a wider, higher, deeper sound stage. Then you will truly be at the point of no return!!! I'm sure that members of the high power crowd will differ with this point of view, but that's what makes being an audiophile so interesting.

[sheltie dave]

It's no surprise that you had such a "jaw dropping" experience! I frequently encounter the same thing when demonstrating varioius SEP or SET amps for people who are accustomed to solid state amplification. Now that you have experienced the difference, try a pair of mono SET amps if you have the opportunity. By eliminating the crosstalk inherent in any stereo unit sharing a common power supply between the 2 channels, you will take listening to the next dimension- i.e. a wider, higher, deeper sound stage. Then you will truly be at the point of no return!!! I'm sure that members of the high power crowd will differ with this point of view, but that's what makes being an audiophile so interesting.

Tube Fanatic, I would politely suggest you hold your horses, and advice, for someone who can afford said advice. Michael is experiencing the best he can within his means, and has experienced monoblocs at my house. There isn't worlds of difference if you can be satisfied with what you have. Tube amps also don't do too well with the higher side of things. They get the wider and deeper quite well, but please save the higher for a forum more susceptible to wafflemammer.

[tube fanatic]

Dave, I didn't know that discussions about audio equipment had to first consider a person's monetary status (if that were the case, the forum would need warnings for people not to read the thread unless they can afford K-horns, or other equipment of a particular cost.) Haven't you ever listened to equipment, or test driven a car, that you couldn't possibly afford just to experience the sheer joy of what technology has to offer? If not, I politely suggest that you give that a try yourself! Remember, these threads are also read by people who can afford to spend more on their equipment. Why should they be deprived of advice which may open them up to a new, and more enjoyable, listening experience? Concerning soundstaging, some equipment does indeed provide greater height than other equipment. In any event, if you don't find monoblocs to be advantageous, so be it. And what's "wafflemammer."

[Marvel]

There is a tendency, on this forum, as well as other forums dealing with certain hobbies, for folks to immediately say..."that's great, what you are doing, but you really need to try blah, blah, blah..." Someone new comes on and is rejoicing about their newfound audio bliss, and they get told tey need to do something different. I'm with Dave on this. It doesn't matter if it's the amps, preamps, cables, sources, or speakers, room trreatments... We should let folks enjoy what they have. If they are happy with their purchase, that's great. I know a couple who really are satisfied with their Bose system, and I can visit them and enjoy the music with them. More power to them! When they eventually hear something better, cleaner, more nuanced, they'll might just ask you questions about how to get there.

Why should we give advice when no one is asking for it?

Bruce

[seti]

I've been wanting to try the Decware SE84 as well. The paper about how it deals with power and impedance is interesting.

[tube fanatic]

There is a tendency, on this forum, as well as other forums dealing with certain hobbies, for folks to immediately say..."that's great, what you are doing, but you really need to try blah, blah, blah..." Someone new comes on and is rejoicing about their newfound audio bliss, and they get told tey need to do something different. I'm with Dave on this. It doesn't matter if it's the amps, preamps, cables, sources, or speakers, room trreatments... We should let folks enjoy what they have. If they are happy with their purchase, that's great. I know a couple who really are satisfied with their Bose system, and I can visit them and enjoy the music with them. More power to them! When they eventually hear something better, cleaner, more nuanced, they'll might just ask you questions about how to get there.

Why should we give advice when no one is asking for it?

Bruce

I find it interesting that the philosophy of the forum waxes back and forth over time. A long time ago a forum member stated that he was having a hard time deciding which tubes to roll in his amp, not that he was dissatisfied with what he had, but rather that he wanted to push things further. I replied that in the '60s tube rolling wasn't nearly as popular as it is now, and that audiophiles tended to stop looking to improve on what wasn't a problem. I further stated that I don't like to see people spending hard earned money on chasing an unattainable "sonic nirvana." Well, that started a firestorm of protest about how I could say such a thing and was severely reprimanded by a very respected and prominent forum member who asked me why I should care how people spend their money! So, it seems a bit paradoxical that now, by making a suggestion which was designed to enlighten, the opposite firestorm is occurring. The fact remains that most of us in the audio field find mono amps to be an improvement over stereo amps (unless they are of a dual mono design.) If my mere words cause Dave's buddy to suddenly become dissatisfied with his SE84, well that's a darn shame. I can't imagine that a man who is obviously quite intelligent (judging from his post) could be so easily swayed.

[Ski Bum]

A little food for thought for Michael regarding 'upgraditis'...My first foray into the single-ended thermionic approach was with Decware amps and a pair of forte (II in my case). After many years and trying lots of gear, I still have that setup. Nice job Dave, and to Michael, enjoy the music!

[sheltie dave]

Finally bit the bullet. One can only hear repeatedly, year after year, ad nauseum, how good fleapower tube/Klipsch combos can be, and year after year I put it off. I'd remain satisfied with nice big Sansuis, Pioneers I lusted for in the 70's when I couldn't afford a stereo to save my life. But, the audio gods knew my heart and my desire to finally experience the beauty of what the audiophiles have known so totally for so long now, even before the big solid state audio boom of the 70's and the effect on mass mentality that all the units moved during that golden era had on music lovers. It took me this long to afford it. It took me this long to find a unit I could afford, facilitated by the generosity and trust of our friend sheltie dave (I just named him "The Tube Enabler"!) He has world-class taste and the gear to match, and when I heard he was making room in his repertoire to include some fine 50's turntables to add to his impressive spread, I lined up to be the benefactor of his effort to move the piece that's the subject of this post. He blessed me with my first SET integrated designed for two-chanel listening. I've dabbled in bass gear that featured tubes since the 70's but my Klipsch Fortes were just begging for this gift, and what a gift it was. Different and better in every single way, is how I'd describe it in perfect detail. The variety of music I've heard in the last hour or 2 has convinced me that I definitely waited entirely too long. Now that the sheer emotionality of the experience is under control I can honestly say that I'm hearing my Fortes for the first time thanks to Dave. Everyone should have someone like The Tube Enabler (sheltie dave) for a friend, he's the best. Deal with him and the experience will be flawless, and with his expertise you can't go wrong. Thanks, Dave.

Tube Fanatic, in case you didn't notice, Michael twice made note of his financial constraints in his original post, so it is a significant factor in his decision making process. Secondly, this is a thread about his joy in finally getting a tube amp, after close to a year of assisted searching for just the right tube amp for him, and as such is a joy/congratulatory thread. He certainly has already heard some of the best mono tube amps, including SET amps, and they aren't even a possible purchase consideration. It serves little purpose to talk about greener pastures.

The other thread you grouse about was much more a "What do I do?" thread, and even then economics is a considered factor when you consider tube purchases. When a preamp/driver tube can vary between $10 and $400, it is always good to discuss costs with a novice or newbie. Unquantified advice can often be poor advice. Like many people on the Klipsch forums(including PWK,) frugal decisions are viewed in a positive light...even if the most frugal decision turns out to iniitially be the most expensive.

I'm sure Michael will be asking about EL 84 options in the coming months for the DecWare. Let's try to keep the snark out, and give Michael some good advice as he needs it.

[erik2A3]

I got a Decware Mini Torii for Christmas from my wife. It's a fantastic amp, and in some cases amd with certain recordings bettered a pair of single ended 2A3s that we paid dearly for. I built almost all the amps I own, and this Decware product has been loads of fun. I've always been one to start taking things apart and changing them for the hoped-for better, and sometimes that actually resulted in an improvement. The summer will be spent part restoring another Baldwin 6L6 amplifier, which os an example of some circuit changes that really made a fantastic difference. Okay, I admit one change to my Decware Mini Torii: I installed a headphone jack so I can switch to headphone use for my Grado phones. Most amps produce some low but audible background hum... Not the Mini Torii. None. To the author of this thread : it's great you found something you really like! I remember when the first Decware amp came out a long time sgo. Most loved it then too, but just like anything in this hobby, there will be others on the other side of the fence,

[sheltie dave]

Erik, he has heard your amps as well, but like all things, the truth really hits you when you hear something in your house on your gear. He is still babbling uncontrollably about how happy they are making him. [H] When I heard them on the Altec 604s put Eva into the room, I knew they would be a great starting point!

[Dennie]

Erik, he has heard your amps as well, but like all things, the truth really hits you when you hear something in your house on your gear. He is still babbling uncontrollably about how happy they are making him. When I heard them on the Altec 604s put Eva into the room, I knew they would be a great starting point!

I love it when that happens!!

Dennie

[Marvel]

Just continue to enjoy the music, Michael. That's what this is all about.

Bruce

[Ski Bum]

...When a preamp/driver tube can vary between $10 and $400, it is always good to discuss costs with a novice or newbie. Unquantified advice can often be poor advice. Like many people on the Klipsch forums(including PWK,) frugal decisions are viewed in a positive light...even if the most frugal decision turns out to iniitially be the most expensive.

I'm sure Michael will be asking about EL 84 options in the coming months for the DecWare. Let's try to keep the snark out

No snark. Just to make a pre-emptive strike on such questions, know that the SE84 amps were voiced using the 6n1p and the 6n15p-ev tubes. In my experience, they are the most neutral and natural sounding tubes in these amps. And, the main point, they are dirt cheap.

[gnatnoop]

There is a tendency, on this forum, as well as other forums dealing with certain hobbies, for folks to immediately say..."that's great, what you are doing, but you really need to try blah, blah, blah..." Someone new comes on and is rejoicing about their newfound audio bliss, and they get told tey need to do something different. I'm with Dave on this. It doesn't matter if it's the amps, preamps, cables, sources, or speakers, room trreatments... We should let folks enjoy what they have. If they are happy with their purchase, that's great. I know a couple who really are satisfied with their Bose system, and I can visit them and enjoy the music with them. More power to them! When they eventually hear something better, cleaner, more nuanced, they'll might just ask you questions about how to get there.

Why should we give advice when no one is asking for it?

Bruce

I find it interesting that the philosophy of the forum waxes back and forth over time. A long time ago a forum member stated that he was having a hard time deciding which tubes to roll in his amp, not that he was dissatisfied with what he had, but rather that he wanted to push things further. I replied that in the '60s tube rolling wasn't nearly as popular as it is now, and that audiophiles tended to stop looking to improve on what wasn't a problem. I further stated that I don't like to see people spending hard earned money on chasing an unattainable "sonic nirvana." Well, that started a firestorm of protest about how I could say such a thing and was severely reprimanded by a very respected and prominent forum member who asked me why I should care how people spend their money! So, it seems a bit paradoxical that now, by making a suggestion which was designed to enlighten, the opposite firestorm is occurring. The fact remains that most of us in the audio field find mono amps to be an improvement over stereo amps (unless they are of a dual mono design.) If my mere words cause Dave's buddy to suddenly become dissatisfied with his SE84, well that's a darn shame. I can't imagine that a man who is obviously quite intelligent (judging from his post) could be so easily swayed.

it was probably two different forum members...

[gnatnoop]

Finally bit the bullet. One can only hear repeatedly, year after year, ad nauseum, how good fleapower tube/Klipsch combos can be, and year after year I put it off. I'd remain satisfied with nice big Sansuis, Pioneers I lusted for in the 70's when I couldn't afford a stereo to save my life. But, the audio gods knew my heart and my desire to finally experience the beauty of what the audiophiles have known so totally for so long now, even before the big solid state audio boom of the 70's and the effect on mass mentality that all the units moved during that golden era had on music lovers. It took me this long to afford it. It took me this long to find a unit I could afford, facilitated by the generosity and trust of our friend sheltie dave (I just named him "The Tube Enabler"!) He has world-class taste and the gear to match, and when I heard he was making room in his repertoire to include some fine 50's turntables to add to his impressive spread, I lined up to be the benefactor of his effort to move the piece that's the subject of this post. He blessed me with my first SET integrated designed for two-chanel listening. I've dabbled in bass gear that featured tubes since the 70's but my Klipsch Fortes were just begging for this gift, and what a gift it was. Different and better in every single way, is how I'd describe it in perfect detail. The variety of music I've heard in the last hour or 2 has convinced me that I definitely waited entirely too long. Now that the sheer emotionality of the experience is under control I can honestly say that I'm hearing my Fortes for the first time thanks to Dave. Everyone should have someone like The Tube Enabler (sheltie dave) for a friend, he's the best. Deal with him and the experience will be flawless, and with his expertise you can't go wrong. Thanks, Dave.

wonderful! sounds like you are SET! [H]

[mike stehr]

I remember back in roughly, (2002-2003?) Dave had a couple few visits at my place when he was working up north of here.

One visit, (if I recall) we listened to a big Sansui integrated amplifier on my '82 Cornwalls. I think we listened to push pull EL-84 amplifiers, they may have been integrated Eico HF-12s, which were converted into power amplifiers.

I brought out a Magnavox single-ended pentode EL-84 console amplifier and asked Dave if he wanted to listen to it on the CWs.

He looked at the little tube amp on a 5X8 chassis, and the look on his face was priceless. A confused, kind of "why would I want to listen to that little POS" look... Turned out he liked the little amplifer.

That was the first Maggotbox 8600 series amplifier. The one I listen to now sounds really good on the Cornwalls...if it only could get about two times louder... But still perfectly fine for low to moderate listening levels.

The Magnavox SEP console amplifiers can be good sounding with a little modernization, but the single ended EL84 pentode circuit I seem to prefer was the RH84. A little more percieved power, and the output tube cathodes aren't shared. Each final tube has it's own cathode resistor. Feedback is plate to plate, or plate to grid, there is a name for the type of feedback.

I lashed up a breadboard circuit of RH84, using a DC tube power supply. I used James HS-6123-JS universal output transformers, with the 5K primary tap. A little overkill on the OPTs, but it makes for one helluva nice sounding single-ended 6BQ5 amplifier.

[erik2A3]

Single ended EL 84, often with a 12AX7 in front, can be awesome. I use ours -- a really tiny little amp -- with Klipschorns from time to time. It's good for about 4 watts, which is just shy of PWK's famous wish.