Our Education System is outdated, unfair, and overpriced

[mark1101]

In Georgia there is no such thing as a 4 year degree anymore. I have 3 kids in college, and I'm talking about UGA and Ga. Tech, the states top schools plus other schools.

It is only with some sort of miracle that a student could get a 4 year degree in 4 years. The infrastructures are so unable to handle the volume that a frehsman can't register for anything worthwhile. It isn't until they get some clout as a second semester sophomare do they have any opportunity to get the classes they need.

I've gone through this with 3 kids who all had 3.7 or above graduating GPAs from High School. The miracle that they each were missing is that they didn't come out of high school with any college credits. The kids who do that can possibly get out of a Ga. University in 4 years.

So basically you have to pay for 5 years as long as they don't screw up...............then more than 5 years.

[Mallette]

Mark, I suspect there is possibly as much as a year of that your kids with 3.7GPAs could test out of.

That's part of my point. Wasted time and money.

Dave

[Marvel]

You have an interesting view Marvel, except that free (never free let's just say publicly funded) public education started before and in a place where there were hardly any catholics. Feel free to enlighten me if I am wrong because the idea is intriguing.

Not real relevant to Dave's topic... I've sent you a PM.

[tube fanatic]

This article presents an excellent overview of the college degree issues that plague our society:

http://www.thetrumpet.com/article/9581.20437.146.0/society/education/sucked-under-by-that-college-degree

I've received this publication for more years than I can remember, and their assessment of many issues has been quite cogent in my opinion.

Maynard

[Fjd]

Dave – Generally, I would tend to agree with your statement that “Our Education System is outdated, unfair, and overpriced.” However, from my personal experiences, one of the major problems or barriers for any wholesale change is the interview process for hiring by business.

I do not believe that there are really any statistics that support a correlation that the most qualified person was chosen for a job in the way people are hired through the ‘interview’ process and the interview process seems to be riddled with bias (whether the bias is known or not by the interviewer).

Given the hiring process through ‘interview’ and in many instances more candidates than jobs, graduating from a formal school system implies to an employer that the job candidate has received a minimum level of knowledge and book learning. In other words, the person can be taught something and has the ability to follow through and complete something. Most contributions to an organization are made as you gain that life experience in the chosen field.

However, when faced with multiple priorities and limited resources, it seems like an arbitrary cut is made based on paper (formal degree) rather than trying to determine who might turn out to be the best candidate.

Unfair or not, if one of the barriers to entry for a specific field is considered a college degree, formal learning seems to be given priority over being self-taught and real life experience in a specific field. I’ve experienced it myself and will explain further in my view on the article Maynard has posted.

Maynard – While I believe that article does highlight various problems with the system and show how disparate situations only open the door to show the greed of those with the power, I believe that many of those articles show certain situations and may not consider broader-based statistics that consider what happens in the majority of the cases where an individual goes to college an earns a degree.

Here is a clip from an article in US News;

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/2011/08/05/how-higher-education-affects-lifetime-salary

“Those holding bachelor's degrees earn about $2.27 million over their lifetime, while those with masters, doctoral, and professional degrees earn $2.67 million, $3.25 million, and $3.65 million, respectively. That said, the major and industry a student selects ultimately have an enormous impact on lifetime earnings. Those with bachelor's degrees who work either in management or science, technology, engineering, and mathematics (STEM) earn more, on average, than people with advanced degrees of any level who work in fields like education, sales, and community service.”…..“Those with bachelor's degrees, no matter the field, earn vastly more than counterparts with some college ($1.55 million in lifetime earnings) or a high school diploma ($1.30 million lifetime), indicating that no matter the level of attainment or the field of study, simply earning a four-year degree is often integral to financial success later in life.”

I can actually speak from personal experience where I ended up divorced and got to keep all of the debt while she got to keep all the assets, was a victim in corporate downsizing for the second time in my life, no parents to go home to, and didn’t have barely an asset to my name.

I thought about these types of articles both for and against the college investment; however, I decided that I would look at a formal college education as an investment in myself knowing what my current prospects were at 40 years old.

I subsequently put myself through school, incurred a substantial amount of new debt (just like the folks in your article), lived in places to get by that a stray dog would avoid, started over and ‘paid my dues’ for a second time in a similar field to my second downsizing and for a lot less money to start.

Even though I had much experience in the field before the formal college degree, I could not make the arbitrary cut in interviews since business is looking for that piece of paper instead of the life experience. In fact, before the degree, one hiring manager told me that without a degree I was not a ‘safe choice’ and if I didn’t work out, he would take the fall because he would be told by his boss, that he should have know this would happen because I didn’t have the degree and he hired me anyway.

Now 14 years later, college debt and the debt I received from the divorce is completely paid off and now I’m on track to maybe become part of the average for the bachelor degree holders in the US News article. I believe that the keys to pulling through and my current success are that I believed that I was worth the investment in myself to obtain the formal college degree full well knowing I alone couldn't change the system, always looked at the glass as half full instead of pity for myself, was fortunate to have people come briefly into my life at key times that kept me from becoming discouraged and helped keep me focused, and did whatever it took, resulting in another set of huge sacrifices in my life to get established a third time. I often wonder (and realize I’m generalizing and there are other factors to consider) how many people that get featured in those articles do not believe in themselves or look at opportunities as being beneath them instead of looking at it as a chance to open another door?

Many controversial topics in this thread with no one-size-fits-all answers to solve all problems.[]

[Mallette]

Fjd, lot of stuff I recognize in your experience. The main point here has little to offer in that area, though certainly easing the means to reaching those plateaus would help with the current rather shakey means of deteriming who gets a job.

In my case, when I need a skill, I want a person who has that skill and I don't care if they never went to school...but that is an exception. Certainly in my field of instructional systems technology I must say that my graduate school experience had major benefits. However, it was largely due to the fact I'd worked in the field for nearly 10 years before going back to school at age 33 and knew precisely what I needed and got it. I did so, between working and GI bill benefits, without incurring a dime of debt and got my master's in 12 months flat. That's probably hard or impossible today, and it isn't right that it's set up that way.

I was allowed to test out of a few things...certainly Audio 101 was ridiculous for someone with 7 years broadcast experience and 3 years with Armed Forces Radio and Television, and a few others as well. But there was a limit and that limit was totally artificial. I could have, and should have, been able to complete my degree in about six months if allowed to test out of any subject I wished. After all, if the tests are accurate I won't pass unless I know the stuff...but they should be no harder than those used in the classroom. I can assure you the ones I had to pass were MUCH harder.

As to hiring, fully agree. It amazes me that business does as well as it does when hiring is so utterly absurd. In my field of technical training NOBODY in the company is really qualified to hire for the position of Chief Learning Officers because it's vacant and they are trying to find a person who is competent to make decisions in an area where they have no qualifications. They only reasonable guidance would be a group of those who will report to that person, and what are the odds of that happening. Over several decades more than once I've failed to get through an HR pre-screen because the individual didn't have a clue as to what the company needed or any basic comprehension of my field. Crap shoot...

I am not going to explain that further as you should get what I mean and I don't want to venture too far off topic. Point is, companies should use firms and consultancies that, at present, do not exist to provide the expertise to get candidates with the KSA's required for fields that are not core competencies for that company.

Dave

[Fjd]

Dave – like you, there were the basic courses that I was able to test out of due to experience. In fact, there were a couple of courses where the option to test out was available, but I did not have the appropriate knowledge from experience; therefore, I bought the text book and studied enough on my own to pass the test for credit.

It did save some time and money in my pursuit of the college degree; however, there were courses that my experience was probably enough in my major to test out of, but these courses were off limits similar to what you discuss.

As I look back, I realize that there was a trade-off for me though, as I got the opportunity to push the professors’ knowledge to the extreme for my own additional learning insight and benefit that would not have been available if I had the opportunity to test out of the courses.

[Mallette]

As I look back, I realize that there was a trade-off for me though, as I got the opportunity to push the professors’ knowledge to the extreme for my own additional learning insight and benefit that would not have been available if I had the opportunity to test out of the courses.

I hear you, and I LOVED school and would have been a professional student if I had the means...but nobody should be forced to do so if they are able to test out and just want to be credentialed and get on with their life.

Dave

[tube fanatic]

Dave, what about the situation in which a person's degree(s) actually works against them? In today's poor employment environment, where people are applying for any job they can perform, many employers will not hire someone whose degree suggests that they are "overqualified" for the job in question. I personally encountered this years ago when I applied for a part-time position with an industrial power supply manufacturer. The owner took one look at my resume, which showed a graduate degree in the optical field, and was ready to negate all of my electronics training and credentials on the basis of that alone. It was only after he pulled out schematics of a number of his designs and began grilling me that he finally relented and said he would give me a try (and was glad that he did!)

And Fjd, I agree with your assessment of the Trumpet article. As with anything, there are different ways to view the situation. Their point, however, about kids getting a useless/costly degree is well taken. I know of so many kids in this community whose parents spent (this is a very wealthy county) upwards of 150 grand or more on their kids' undergraduate education only to have them graduate and take up a "career" at the local sneaker store or supermarket.

I don't see any easy fix for the situation as it currently stands.

[Mallette]

In today's poor employment environment, where people are applying for any job they can perform, many employers will not hire someone whose degree suggests that they are "overqualified" for the job in question.

That's one of the things I was talking about where those doing the employing, especially for specialized positions, wouldn't know qualified or un if they saw it. It's what you do when you don't have the qualifications to make a proper decision.

Wonder if McDonalds would take me if I applied with my graduate degree. Bet they would!

Dave

[Fjd]

Dave, what about the situation in which a person's degree(s) actually works against them? In today's poor employment environment, where people are applying for any job they can perform, many employers will not hire someone whose degree suggests that they are "overqualified" for the job in question. I personally encountered this years ago when I applied for a part-time position with an industrial power supply manufacturer. The owner took one look at my resume, which showed a graduate degree in the optical field, and was ready to negate all of my electronics training and credentials on the basis of that alone. It was only after he pulled out schematics of a number of his designs and began grilling me that he finally relented and said he would give me a try (and was glad that he did!)

And Fjd, I agree with your assessment of the Trumpet article. As with anything, there are different ways to view the situation. Their point, however, about kids getting a useless/costly degree is well taken. I know of so many kids in this community whose parents spent (this is a very wealthy county) upwards of 150 grand or more on their kids' undergraduate education only to have them graduate and take up a "career" at the local sneaker store or supermarket.

I don't see any easy fix for the situation as it currently stands.

I sure can understand the feeling when someone believes that you are overqualified or do not have the right qualifications. Many times the hiring person is not qualified themselves to understand the transferrable skills that will apply in the new job. After the first downsizing I went through, that was the most difficult part of the job search was to articulate the concept of transferrable skills and how these transferrable skills would be a great match for the job that I was interviewing for.

Regarding the other point, while I do believe that there are many 'useless/costly' degrees being pursued today and I’m not certain about the ‘root cause’ of each individual situation that you are aware of, I believe that the ‘useless/costly’ degree has always been around and available to those that pursues one. As a kid in high school I remember some taunting by others in asking about one’s degree choice, ‘what are you going to do with one of those liberal arts degrees?’

I suspect that with the ‘information age’ or ‘information revolution’ upon us, there are too many avenues for the ‘predators’ to strike and take advantage of the young and inexperienced (as well as the old and uniformed) in promoting these types of degrees without informing the person about the ultimate cost and where, or whether the prospects for jobs even exist.

I don’t mean to come across as facetious about the situation and it may not apply to the situations you are aware of; however, I believe that many people tend to put more effort in planning a two week vacation than the effort that goes into planning a career choice and all of the considerations involved (such as considering if jobs are available in the chosen field where a person wants to live and what type of salary that job provides in measuring the return on the investment).

I chose my degree field based on where my life experience had already taken me and understanding geographically where I may end up to ultimately find work in an effort to leverage the two and be reasonably happy with my choices. However, I am very thankful for the counsel I had from one of those people that briefly entered my life at the right time and that I had developed some understanding about my available choices in relation to my lot in life and desperately wanted and needed to make it work. For me, it was more about survival than having many choices.

Given the above, I believe that we’ve always had a “mobile work force” in this country migrating to where the jobs are and sometimes people tend to forget that. However, “mobile” is a relative term that must consider the timeframe discussed. For example, in the early 1900s my grandfather made the biggest move in our family as he moved from Europe to Ohio and rented land to farm (from the coal company) while working in that same coal company mines to provide a better way of life for his children (although the children essentially became the farm-hands). The family (wife and children that were born up to that time) did not come all at once, but came at separate times as they were able to save money and afford to bring another over.

Most of the children ended up drafted in the military, some lost their life in the line of duty, while others ultimately had to move away significant distances (for the times) from the family farm to find work once of age. Now it seems that migration in a global economy more often may take certain people with certain education/training to other countries to find meaningful employment. Some I currently work with would relish the opportunity to go 'overseas' and work.

Here is another excerpt for a more recent study (on the FOX news site, but an associated press article) on a recent view of the value of a college education in general;

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/20/analysis-new-studies-weigh-college-value-and-cost/

“Released last week by the Lumina Foundation and Georgetown University's Center on Education and the Workforce, seems to thoroughly demolish the idea that the Great Recession diminished the value of a college degree. Yes, recent college grads have struggled more than usual to find jobs matching their training. But overall, even as unemployment was rising past 10 percent, the authors found the economy actually added 200,000 jobs for workers with a bachelor's degree. Since the recovery began, it's created 2 million more.” ….. "Since the recovery started two years ago we've seen a real acceleration. The gap between those with a college credential and those without one is growing." “The unemployment rate for all four-year graduates is 4.5 percent. For recent graduates, it's 6.8 percent. For recent graduates trying to work with only a high school diploma, it's nearly 24 percent. In construction and manufacturing, which accounted for two-thirds of all Great Recession job losses, virtually all of the hiring during the recovery has targeted people with bachelor's or at least associate's degrees. Despite the hit those industries took, there are now about as many jobs in them as before the recession overall. But there are 15 percent fewer jobs for those with only high school in manufacturing, and 25 percent fewer in construction.”

Agreed, there is no easy fix and it is hard to track down all of the variables causing the anomalies that need addressed. However, in general, I believe that a college degree has significant upside over no college degree in today's work environment.

My apologies to Dave as I believe I have veered off topic somewhat.

[Chris A]

#2:..The schools that you quoted are for-profit, including Ivy league universities. Most state schools are now being run like for-profit institutions in order to make up for shortfalls in state funding. They don't want to sell you a degree based on placement tests alone - it's too inexpensive for the students. These universities would be diluting their brand by selling their diplomas at too low of a price, increasingly flooding jobs markets that are already flooded with qualified job seekers.

Further evidence...

[Mallette]

Good one, Cask. Further evidence, indeed.

However, that's only part of the problem. The public schools will also hate my concept because it provides real Equal Opportunity by allowing multiple ways around the current stacked system. I am NOT against public schools and totally support compulsory education. However, I do not think it should be the state's concern has to how it's achieved...only that it IS achieved.

In fact, all I am pushing here is what we used to call "the American way." May the best competitor win.

Dave

[TheEvan]

I read only the original post, so forgive me if I cover ground already traveled.

We home schooled our two with fine results, despite our, uh, "relaxed" approach.[:|]

Your critique hits the mark as far as self-serving motivations by those with a stake in the system. I think the methodology and even the aim of higher education has similarly gone astray as well and has become self-serving and self-perpetuating. If we are not teaching our students to think, perceive, weigh, critique, and HOW to learn, we are not teaching. Too much of college has become glorified trade school, no?

A return to a wide-ranging, holistic grounding in classic liberal arts...in the great works of Western civilization, is basic to producing educated humans. The current system produces useful automatons.

[Gilbert]

This is a general rule as there are always exceptions, but smart parents lead to smart kids, dumb parents..... you get the idea. School is just one facet to a person's education.

Agreed, absolutely 100%... particularly with the later part of Barts's comment. It's all about the quality and quantity of work, effort & sacrifice, you as a student are willing to invest. "Shyt-in = shyt-out", and vise versa, always has and always will. There will forever be good and bad educators, and hard-luck storys about obstacles, challenges, limited finances, so on, and so on... it never ends. Makes no difference whether the institution is an Ivy League College or Local Business, the educational buck stops at the student's feet, not at that of the institution. Push yourself to excel and yee shall eventually be rewarded, if not, there's always that lesser or shyt job that someone else is doing, and that you made fun of when you were a kid.

[Mallette]

It's all about the quality and quantity of work, effort & sacrifice, you as a student are willing to invest.

This part is on point precisely, Gil. This is all it should be about, not how much money you have or "good" or "bad" educators.

Dave