Big Horns Room?

[seti]

Hey you guys with big rooms and big horns. I was looking at pics of rooms like IBSlammin Artto and Mikebse2a3. I'm curious how you guys determined what treatments to use? How do you know when you have the right amount of treatments.

Also if you have some big horns post some pics. I'm curious how others have them set up and placement.

[kaiser SET say]

[]

[Marvel]

And we wouldn't steer you wrong... [:#]

[Quiet_Hollow]

With enough space...one doesn't need hardly any treatment at all. But seeing as few of us have auditoriums for listening space you start by looking at the polar dispersion charts of the horns. Look at the angles where the directivity is low or (god forbid) lost altogether, and use those to figure out where reflections will occur. If the reflective distances are less than 15 feet from either the listener or the speaker itself, then treatment is required.

[seti]

So smaller room = less treatments?

[thebes]

Well I have a small room and my bass spends most of its time on the ceiling, so I'm thinking no.

Perhaps some dimensions, horn types etc. would help the gurus proffer more detailed suggestions?

(Durn newbies, they never provide enough info, mutter, mutter. Lousy 8,000 posts. I suppose he'll get better once he's been here for awhile))

[artto]

Hey you guys with big rooms and big horns. I was looking at pics of rooms like IBSlammin Artto and Mikebse2a3. I'm curious how you guys determined what treatments to use? How do you know when you have the right amount of treatments.

Also if you have some big horns post some pics. I'm curious how others have them set up and placement.

In my case, I bought the house I did, because its layout had
a room (normally used as a “recreation room” as they were called back then)
that had a size and proportions that could “ideally” (too a certain extent) accommodate
Klipschorns.

Where did I get this idea? Well, when I bought my first
Klipsch speakers, a pair of Cornwalls that I had to wait 3 months for. I was so
happy with them I wrote Klipsch and apparently Belle Klipsch passed my letter
around to the employees to read. She then sent me a bound copy of the Klipsch
Audio Papers. Also, I was an architecture student at the time and had been
involved with music playing in bands. U of I, Urbana has an auditorium called The Great
Hall. And I guess I spent much more time in the music and electrical engineering
libraries than I did in my enrolled curriculum. The Klipsch Audio Papers, as
you well know, have a lot of information on the Klipschorn, sound reproduction
and acoustics in general. So when I bought the Klipschorns I already had plans
for what kind of space I was going to put them in.

As far as the room goes, being an architect I knew from the
beginning that sound transmission was an important issue so the room was built
accordingly, including heavily reinforced corners for the Khorns. As far as
acoustic treatments go, that has more or less been a “journey”. The room is
currently configured much differently than originally planned, although I did employ
some polycylindrical diffusors from the beginning.

The room is not nearly as large as it looks in the pictures,
however when the room is completely empty it kind looks like a small bowling
alley.

At first, the primary room treatments involved just getting
rid of flutter echo and experimenting with reverberation quality using large
rug remnants I got for free from the department stores. I was an early user of
Sonex. I bought a large box of the stuff from a local pro sound contractor. I
also experimented with placement of Celotex tiles (rigid insulation) that I cut
into pieces from large sheets. One day I read about the Live-End/Dead-End acoustical
strategy and tried to implement that but it sounded terrible with the Khorns.
Also, for me, the reference standard for acoustical sound quality was The Great
Hall at U of I in Urbana.
I tried to capture that kind of sound quality, and indeed, even the visual
quality of that space. Basically I used my ears. Eventually I borrowed some
McIntosh RTA gear and calibrated mike from my local dealer and ran some tests.
Later I acquired Sound Forge which I use for recording and mastering and it has
some analytical tools. And of course now there’s software like REW for room
analysis and QRDUDE for designing diffusers for free.

Basically it’s a process of “ears ~ test..........ears ~
test..........ears ~ test” while starting out with basic proven acoustical
principals. In my case, having studied architecture, I guess I had somewhat of an
advantage since acoustics and sound transmission is covered to some degree.

If you haven’t seen my documentation “artto’s klipschorn
room” in the Forum Architectural section you might want to take a look at that
as I go through a lot of what into the room’s construction and acoustical
treatment. There’s also a link on one of the pages there that has a download of
the Audio Papers and other assorted goodies from my personal library.

[Boxx]

Excellent wall treatment for the "Big Horn" room..

[Quiet_Hollow]

So smaller room = less treatments?

bigger room = less treatment

An extreme example would be taking your speakers outside for a listen.

[seti]

(Durn
newbies, they never provide enough info, mutter, mutter. Lousy 8,000
posts. I suppose he'll get better once he's been here for awhile))

True that Thebes.

So smaller room = less treatments?

bigger room = less treatment

An extreme example would be taking your speakers outside for a listen.

Duh sorry must have been dsylexic yesterday.

Artto thanks for the reply. I've read that thread many times but I'll check it out again.

[artto]

I might also add, that as far as typical domestic residential rooms are concerned (in other words you're not a wealthy Arab oil mogul living in a palace where the smallest washroom is larger than most people's property), all of our listening rooms are "small", acoustically speaking. Even a room the size of a gymnasium needs acoustical treatment for music/sound reproduction to tame reverberation. The Great Hall at U of I Urbana that I mentioned (2000+ seats) even has bass traps that extend an average of 6 stories above the ceiling of the hall.

So, does someone's "large" 30'x60'x20' listening room treatments? YES!!!! (especially if the room surfaces are parallel)

Some interesting reading on my favorite reference standard modern concert hall:

http://www.kcsa.uiuc.edu/tours/tourWeb/GreatHall.html

[DrWho]

Hey you guys with big rooms and big horns. I was looking at pics of rooms like IBSlammin Artto and Mikebse2a3. I'm curious how you guys determined what treatments to use? How do you know when you have the right amount of treatments.

Also if you have some big horns post some pics. I'm curious how others have them set up and placement.

The way the professionals start is by taking an ETC at the various listening positions. At that point, you'll be able to determine which early reflections need treated, and then you'll know how diffuse (or not diffuse) your soundfield is.

[artto]

overall interior view

[artto]

Hey you guys with big rooms and big horns. I was looking at pics of rooms like IBSlammin Artto and Mikebse2a3. I'm curious how you guys determined what treatments to use? How do you know when you have the right amount of treatments.

Also if you have some big horns post some pics. I'm curious how others have them set up and placement.

The way the professionals start is by taking an ETC at the various listening positions. At that point, you'll be able to determine which early reflections need treated, and then you'll know how diffuse (or not diffuse) your soundfield is.

The fact of the matter is the rooms with the best acoustics in the world were built long before ETC existed. ETC is in reality a back tracking method of acoustical analysis which was develped to try and understand how and why those great acoustical spaces sound the way they do in the first place so it could be replicated in other places. So far the only thing that's really come of this is that it's verified that what was done in these great acoustical spaces is the way it should be done. The same principals still apply.

[Chris A]

Hey you guys with big rooms and big horns. I was looking at pics of rooms like IBSlammin Artto and Mikebse2a3. I'm curious how you guys determined what treatments to use? How do you know when you have the right amount of treatments.

I'm pretty sure that I'm excluded from your discussion by the tone of your query, but note that I will say something about your subject anyway..[] :

Add a little, listen a lot, add a little, listen a lot...start at the areas right around the exits of your midrange horn mouths.

Sometimes you need to add a lot, then listen a little, then move things around a lot...

Of course it helps to use relatively inexpensive acoustic treatment materials during these sessions. (Maybe that's why I ended up using a bunch of absorption panels...? [*-)] )

I'd have to disagree with Mike on this subject - small rooms (...the acoustical definition of a small room...which also includes large home listening rooms) have serious problems that ETCs cannot always discover, or upon discovering problems using ETCs, you really can't do much about the particular issues that you measured.

Also, I find that I usually follow the course of the measured issues rather than listen with my ears - (much like MBA's do in large corporations to screw them up...). ...You get the metaphor, right? [:^)]

Chris

[dtel]

How do you know when you have the right amount of treatments

When my wife finished putting the sofa and chairs where she wanted. Well it's really a living room so my only choice was where the speakers went, but it's a nice size which helps, I guess ? 24' w x 18' deep with another 16' open to the depth, 2 chairs one sofa, rugs curtains, standard stuff.

[seti]

Wow the pics are amazing.

Hey you guys with big rooms and big horns. I was looking at pics of rooms like IBSlammin Artto and Mikebse2a3. I'm curious how you guys determined what treatments to use? How do you know when you have the right amount of treatments.

I'm pretty sure that I'm excluded from your discussion by the tone of your query, but note that I will say something about your subject anyway.. :

Add a little, listen a lot, add a little, listen a lot...start at the areas right around the exits of your midrange horn mouths.

Sometimes you need to add a lot, then listen a little, then move things around a lot...

Of course it helps to use relatively inexpensive acoustic treatment materials during these sessions. (Maybe that's why I ended up using a bunch of absorption panels...? )

I'd have to disagree with Mike on this subject - small rooms (...the acoustical definition of a small room...which also includes large home listening rooms) have serious problems that ETCs cannot always discover, or upon discovering problems using ETCs, you really can't do much about the particular issues that you measured.

Also, I find that I usually follow the course of the measured issues rather than listen with my ears - (much like MBA's do in large corporations to screw them up...). ...You get the metaphor, right?

Chris

Sorry if it came across that way I wasn't excluding anyone. These are guys with big horns and rooms that I remembered had treatments. I'll take any advice on a subject I know so little about.

Ibslammin came down to my place with alot of treatments and the influence on the room was immediate but I was trying to fix speaker issues with treatments. This was the wrong to go about it but still a very valuable learning experience.

[seti]

How do you know when you have the right amount of treatments

When my wife finished putting the sofa and chairs where she wanted. Well it's really a living room so my only choice was where the speakers went, but it's a nice size which helps, I guess ? 24' w x 18' deep with another 16' open to the depth, 2 chairs one sofa, rugs curtains, standard stuff.

LOL

[DrWho]

Hey
you guys with big rooms and big horns. I was looking at pics of rooms
like IBSlammin Artto and Mikebse2a3. I'm curious how you guys determined
what treatments to use? How do you know when you have the right amount
of treatments.

Also if you have some big horns post some pics. I'm curious how others have them set up and placement.

The
way the professionals start is by taking an ETC at the various
listening positions. At that point, you'll be able to determine which
early reflections need treated, and then you'll know how diffuse (or not
diffuse) your soundfield is.

The
fact of the matter is the rooms with the best acoustics in the world
were built long before ETC existed. ETC is in reality a back tracking
method of acoustical analysis which was develped to try and understand
how and why those great acoustical spaces sound the way they do in the
first place so it could be replicated in other places. So far the only
thing that's really come of this is that it's verified that what was
done in these great acoustical spaces is the way it should be done. The
same principals still apply.

Right, and I suppose my oscilliscope and AP system at work is just a
back tracking method too? I should just build the simulation and call it
a day - no need to measure anything! I know what the old cat engineers
at work would have to say about that, lol.

I
dunno why you are so hostile to actually quantifying acoustical
behavior - in fact, you might even be able to improve the sound in your
own room if you would actually take the time to explore them. It only
costs $100 +
laptop/computer to get very valuable information. I couldn't fathom
tuning a room without it - just like I can't fathom tuning my circuits
at work without my analyzers. Heck, if you're that cheap I'll loan you
my calibrated system.

Several of the weak sauce acousticians will just model in Ease
and call it a day (hey, they gotta make money somehow), but the better
companies come in after the fact to measure and tweak the living
daylights out of the systems. Those are the guys that are making rooms
sound better than they should - the S.N. Shure Theater is in my mind a
wonderful example of the modern process - the guys at Threshold
Acoustics turned an otherwise horrible room into an extremely adequate
performance venue. Surely you aren't implying that they simply did it
all by ear?

Perhaps you can enlighten us as to how modern acoustical methods have resulted in worse sound?

I'm also not sure I would pick the Great Hall at UIUC as a prime example of performance hall acoustics...

[Quiet_Hollow]

Staying on topic...I think it bears significance to mention that dispersion patterns are characteristics not to be taken lightly.

For most of the Klipsch Heritage / Pro , those patterns are well documented, and so long as the data are respected, one can achieve amazing sound.

Anything with a K700 series or K400 series horn should be toed-in 40 to 45 degrees. If that's too much toe, then the room needs to be bigger to achieve the designer's intended sound. No big deal, others place them as they see fit, but just keep in mind that it's not ultimately how the idea works according to the papers.

From my experience in carpeted rooms, the squawker/tweeter hand-off (going from 90 to well over 100 degrees) presents the first major hurdle for treatment. 55 to 65 degrees from the center line of the tweeter is where things get dicey. With enough spread between two speakers placed with 45 degree of toe, it's a non-issue because the reflection bounces off the wall between the two cabs, then strikes the side wall almost behind the listening position. By the time it strikes the sidewall, the inverse square law has worked to absorb enough SPL that the sound is masked by the original signal.

If the speakers aren't toed-in enough then the side walls get pelted with a really good amount of energy in the 5 kHz region. If they are not toed-in at all, then the squawker gets to hammer the side wall with all of its fury as well. Use Trig to figure out how far to place the absorbers based on the angle of the speaker to the wall.

Naturally, there's more to it than that, but that's an idea of how it works with these speakers.