LarryC Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 I don't credit JFK with extraordinary insight or brilliance here. If it were a Risk game most folks would do the same thing. He had all the intel and held all the cards.Uh, well, he also had very good judgement and experience in world affairs and warfare. His father was ambassador to England in the run-up to WW II, and JFK visited the House of Commons during Churchill's speeches!! That and his wartime Naval experience added up to a very special background and wisdom in world affairs.<p>I wouldn't be so sure about other presidents doing the same thing with the same self-perceived intel and cards to play, e.g., LBJ in the Gulf of Tonkin incident or W and advisors after 9/11. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Had no intention of reflecting on JFK's accomplishments, intelligence, or whatever one way or the other...only this one particular event. I see no connection between it and the later issues and Presidents you mention at all. Laid out as I recall it, there is no other call other than to make noise and do nothing if one was a total wimp. Few Presidents would have gone that route, or just started bombing when there was an obviously cleaner and more defensible method. I am not an authority and perhaps I've some of the facts wrong. Feel free to correct. However, if the facts are as I presented them any IQ above about 80 would have come to the same conclusion. JMHO... Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Yep....Ole Kennedy was an honest saint, him and the whole family.Now, back to 49 years ago today, the world was a lot safer and heading in a better direction than it is today, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 JFK had a high profile in Canada as well. I was in grade 8 when our teacher was summoned from the class. He returned to tell us President Kennedy had been shot. A while later, he told us he had died. It was a sad day for everyone. Recently, I heard an interview on CBC Radio with Sergei Krushchev, Nikita's son, who has lived in the US since 1991 and is a university professor. When he was asked about the Cuban Missile Crisis, he said that his father's view was that as part of the Soviet empire, Cuba was one of their overseas territories and needed protection from the threat of US invasion, which was quite real at the time. When JFK pressed hard on the missile issue, Kruschev's personal reaction was not fear, but more like relief, since he didn't want war any more than JFK did. He had stood up for Cuba, but was not willing to risk everything for them. It was interesting to finally hear the other side of the story. More info about Sergei here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Khrushchev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Gents, while, IMHO, this has remained a historic rather than political discussion, let's ensure that it remains that way to avoid any moderation by the Boss. I'll just repeat that my point about JFK's decision was in no way intended to belittle or praise. Just my analysis of one situation that I personally don't feel would have been handled by any other President, or even one of us, much differently given that we had the same information to work with. When one is presented with a bluff and one's opponents cards are in plain view, calling it isn't much of a decision. I've little doubt the President was nervous as the sanity of one's opponent is always an issue, but I don't think he was as frightened as those of us who didn't have all the info that he had. Anyway, it worked out nicely and I certainly appreciate his leadership in this instance. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Amy Posted November 27, 2012 Moderators Share Posted November 27, 2012 Gents, while, IMHO, this has remained a historic rather than political discussion, let's ensure that it remains that way to avoid any moderation by the Boss. Good idea! I wasn't born yet, but I have been one of the gawking tourists in Dealey Plaza. So much historical significance in such a small place... it was quite moving, really. I'm sure the citizens of Dallas find it a bit annoying, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 I'm sure the citizens of Dallas find it a bit annoying, however. The red "x" marks painted on Elm street by the school book depository I think are in bad taste, but the memorial across on the other side of the courthouse--isn't. I do think there is a tendency to focus on personalities and images. I believe that we need it to remember and think about meaning in context, and not as a retrospective zero-sum game of who was ultimately proved right or wrong: that's what political historians tend to do, and I find that most problems start right there. Chris P.S. I think that I'll go home tonight and put on my "Dedicated to Victims of War and Terror" SACD of Schnittke and Shostakovich war compositions, as recorded by John Eargle in 2001: powerful stuff for the Jubs... [Y] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 US President John Fitzgerald Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas, TX....Do you remember where you were and what you were doing?I don't know about you but I really think that what happened today is much worse. This is profoundly sad. I find it difficult to comprehend. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhoak Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 I would have to agree with that. On all points. The killing of anyone simply would never occur to me. Much less the mass execution of children. Quite simply unbelievable to me. What get’s in the heads of people that drives them to these kinds of acts. If you’re hell bent on killing someone point the gun barrel at your temple and pull the trigger. BOOM! There... You were successful at killing someone. My heart goes out to the families of the victims. I simply can't imagine what they're feeling right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dolbyscat Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 What an unbelievable, unthinkable act...I hope I never again hear that tired old saying "guns don't kill people, people kill people". Extremely sad.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/12/15/4487753/school-killers-mom-made-irresponsible.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dolbyscat Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/12/15/4487753/school-killers-mom-made-irresponsible.htmlOh! If Bud Kennedy says it,,,then it must be right....No more discussion needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skonopa Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/12/15/4487753/school-killers-mom-made-irresponsible.htmlOh! If Bud Kennedy says it,,,then it must be right....No more discussion needed. People are going to politicize this. Another pointless "gun control" debate is going to erupt out of this. And in the end, what does it accomplish? More than likely ABSOLUTLY NOTHING!!!! In a few months, this will end up being another sad footnote in history. All that still not change the fact that we have SCHOOL CHILDREN that were doing nothing more than going to school and trying to get an education, who have been robbed of thier short lives. No more Christmases, no more Birthdays, no high-school sweet hearts, no proms, no college, no marriage, no children of thier own and so forth. We have parents who have been robbed of thier children at such a young age. We have children that are probably now scarred for the rest of thier lives from this. We have children who have been robbed of thier teachers. We have families who have been robbed of thier love one. We have a rural community that has been devestated by all this... And we have somebody on here bitching about somebody that might say "Oh guns don't kill, people kill"??!!?? Seriously, cry me a friggan river here! I personally don't give two $#!+s nor a d[6]mn about all these stupid politics and gun control [bs]. The only thing I care is that I hope as hell that these people can get through this and that perhaps SOMETHING can be done so that those kids deaths are not in vain. Also I do care that hopefully some sense can be made of this and perhaps REASONABLE measures can be put in place to prevent any more tragedies like this from happening again. Unfortunatly, this will more than likely result in even more draconian gun control laws as well as schools being locked down so tight that they might as well be prisons. Also lets not forget that a day before this happened, there was shooting at a mall in Oregon where three innocent bystanders where needlessly killed as well. May God bless and my prayers are definitly to those people there in Newtown/Sandy Hook in Connecticut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhoak Posted December 16, 2012 Author Share Posted December 16, 2012 Access to firearms is NOT the problem here. Mental health or more accurately the lack thereof is the real issue here. Had the deeply troubled young man who murdered 27 people been denied firearms he would have chosen another method to wreak havoc. The first that come to mind would be ramming a carload of AMFO through the front doors of the school. Depending on where he struck the resulting explosion would have killed many more and done irreparable damage to the building. A simple machete which is widely available could be used to kill many in a matter of minutes. Like I said earlier. It's not the weapon of choice, it's about the mindset of the person wielding said weapon. There are many many ways to kill lots of people be they adults or children. This one chose firearms. The next one may choose explosives or perhaps toxic gasses. One of the down sides of the internet and freely available information is that the "recipe" for many deadly devices and chemicals is easy enough to find. Do a search on AMFO or Sarin gas and you'll quickly see what I'm saying. If there was any "failing" to blame for this very tragic event it's the medical system's inability to identify potentially violent people. Perhaps the parent's should shoulder some the blame as well. Did they recognize a problem with their child? Did they seek help for him? I'm guessing yes for the former and no for the latter. We live in a society where "mental health issues" are negatively stigmatized. Nobody wants to talk about it much less admit to such issues. I lived for 17 years with a manic depressive alcoholic. She was never a danger to others but constantly a danger to herself. To this day she struggles with her demons with little or no support from the medical community. In the 80's and 90's most of this countries mental institutions were closed down for various reasons. Today about the only way to get decent mental health care is to commit a crime and be incarcerated in the prison system. To me this is just sad. I know a few who should be institutionalized (at least for the short term) to protect the public at large from their potential outbursts. Don't get me wrong here. I'm not pointing a finger or laying blame on anyone. I'm just saying that perhaps if there was a better mental health identification and support system in place the young man who pulled a trigger more than 100 times Friday morning might have found the help he needed rather than executing 27 innocent lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Unfortunately the second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution guarantees that weapons will be generally available to U.S. citizens, regardless of your personal desires (...and folks external to the U.S. may not understand that this law will not change in their lifetimes...). I posted the link in order to draw attention to: 1) what the author thought the root cause to be (and what I cannot say for sure IS the root cause), and 2) reactionary solutions and lip service that aren't going to address the problem. ALL weapons would have to be effectively removed--and that isn't going to happen. I believe the article deserves a bit more consideration than what was given above (initially): the tragedy is that an individual with apparent mental problems (and this isn't the first time this has occurred) murdered 20 first graders in class. This is...inconceivable. A federal law (felony) requiring the securing of weapons via trigger locks using a variety of technologies including smart locks, and securing of ammunition might have have prevented this tragedy as "simple solutions". But the long term answer is to deal with the root problem: the people who need help--mental help--and laws that presently prevent otherwise responsible mental health professionals from disclosing this type of potential behavior, and the absence of those that would bring follow-on help that can apply resources to bear to significantly reduce the odds of this from happening in the future...that, and other interventions, like juvenile support systems to stop abuse and treat victims of domestic violence, thus breaking the chain. I'll pay more income taxes to support those activities...but not for increased police forces and more federal bureaucracy. Praying and lip service aren't going to address these problems, but action might. Where do you think training for violence using firearms originated in this case? Honestly...from cartoons or Sunday school? Training unstable individuals how to make bombs isn't ethical, either. Perhaps controls on violent images being drilled into individuals with mental health issues predisposed to this type of behavior is another intervention that might effectively reduce the frequency of these cases. Freedom of speech is already severely abridged in this country - against national leaders and other areas. Perhaps we should forget about those laws and institute laws to help protect the rank and file instead. But the dialogue has to be of substance--and it needs to start today, IMHO. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skonopa Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 But the dialogue has to be of substance--and it needs to start today, IMHO. Chris Thank both of you and 'jhoak' for very reasonable responses. You both are indeed correct and fully agree that it may very well lie in dealing with the mental health and better support and care needs to be made, instead of just "locking them up in institutions" and labelling them as "retards". As was pointed out, this horrible tragedy could've easily been done via a truck loaded with fertilizer (Oklahoma City anyone?), but just so happens that firearms were more convenient. Look at past history. The Columbine was due to kids with mental issues (but blamed on violent games and easy access to guns). Virigina Tech was the same thing. Aurora, CO as well. Hell, just a day prior to this happening, there was that shooting at a mall in Oregon in which three totally innocent bystanders that was doing nothing more than going Christmas shopping where gunned down. Anyway, I am afraid that this is all just going to devolve into another big political finger-pointing circus or another pointless "gun control" debate, in which nothing is actually done to figure out just what the REAL root cause of something like this. LIke you said, dialogue of substance needs to be engaged and hopefully some reasonable solution can be found that does not just simply result in more government beuracracy or more pointless, unenforcable laws end up getting passed, but in the end, does nothing to really prevent a future tragedy like this. It is a shame that it took the loss of 20 children and 7 adults that were doing nothing more than going to school to really start waking people up here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dolbyscat Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Thank both of you and 'jhoak' for very reasonable responses. I'm just guessing, but when you say "reasonable responses" what you really mean is responses that fit your way of thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 It is high time that we STOP this insanity of trying to put the blame on anything but the person who commits the act! People MUST start to accept the consequences of their own actions and our leaders MUST DE-liberalize the legal codes so that punishment for the crimes WILL actually occur! Every Judeo-Christian is taught that Cain killed Abel with the jawbone of an ***. They are NOT taught that the jawbone of an *** was at fault. They are taught that CAIN was at fault! Wake up! Face reality! Put the blame where it belongs...ON THE PERSON WHO COMMITS THE CRIME! AND...on a judicial system that is more concerned with individual liberties of criminals than in making those criminals pay for their crimes! Here is a thought for you...is there a waiting period or a federal background check done for the purchase of a chainsaw? Do you have to be of any particular age or need a valid I.D. to get one? How about a kitchen knife? hunting knife? a baseball bat? cordless drill? cordless saw?...tractor with brushhog? I can go on and on! When somebody pours gasoline on somebody else and lights a match to them...does the gasoline get the blame? How about the match? Just how many things do you know of that CANNOT be used as a weapon?? Think about it...be REAL...and admit to yourself that NOTHING is really a weapon until SOMEBODY uses it as a weapon! Face it, there are crazy people out there who will kill for any number of reasons. There are ALSO people out there who are just plain EVIL, and full of hate and will also kill for any number of reasons! If/when they are ready to commit their dastardly acts of violence or murder, nothing will stop them...NOTHING...unless they are caught BEFORE the act occurs. Unfortunately for us, if the act has not already occurred, then they cannot be charged for it...only for PLANNING it, and that is very hard to prove, because you have to prove maiicious intent. SO, let's not be too quick to put the blame on anything other than the person who commits the atrocity, OK? Back to the original intent of this thread, please! -Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dolbyscat Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Wake up! Face reality! I agree...and you should be the first to follow your own advice. Your argument is ridiculous, sure just about anything COULD be used as a weapon, but the reality is that when it comes to choice it's a gun that is used. Why? because that is what it was designed for. Why don't you show me an example of someone pouring gasoline on twenty six people and then striking a match. Pulling a trigger and letting loose a few rounds is a fairly impersonal way of doing someone in, pulling a knife and carving up twenty people is quite another thing. I know it, you know it. If the founding fathers were around today they would know it, and would be smart enough to re-think what they intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Wake up! Face reality! I agree...and you should be the first to follow your own advice. Your argument is ridiculous, sure just about anything COULD be used as a weapon, but the reality is that when it comes to choice it's a gun that is used. Why? because that is what it was designed for. Why don't you show me an example of someone pouring gasoline on twenty six people and then striking a match. Pulling a trigger and letting loose a few rounds is a fairly impersonal way of doing someone in, pulling a knife and carving up twenty people is quite another thing. I know it, you know it. If the founding fathers were around today they would know it, and would be smart enough to re-think what they intended. How would you know anything about the intent of the founding fathers of the United States of America? You worry about Canada, and let the U.S. worry about the U.S., ok? And I promise to stay out of the Canadians' business! Deal? -Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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