AVR differences.

[chambers1517]

I have an issue that really has me perplexed. 18 months ago I finished my theater. It is 28' x14'. There is a riser 12' back and another one 18' back. They are 8" tall and The front of each riser has a 2" gap anong the bottom to act as a bass trap. They are also filled with Insulation. I am constantly modifying this room to improve the sound. I have 3 Lascalas built into the front wall along wit an IB with 4 18" drivers. I had Heresy's on the sides and back but they were too bid and stuck out into the room. I built wedge shaped boxes in the wall and ceiling corners on the sides between the two rows and in the back. They have the same internal volume as the Heresy cabinets and I put the Heresy components in them. This also angles the sides and rears down towards the seats. I put insulation across the wall and ceiling corners down the side and across the back everywhere except where the speakers are. I then covered the entire ceiling wall corner with speaker fabric to hide everything. It looks really nice. I put a screen above the front Lascalas and I wanted as big a screen as I could get. I went with a 12" wide anamorphic screen. The bottom is right above the Lascalas and the top is right below the ceiling. The ceiling is painted black and the front Lascalas and IB is covered with black speaker cloth. My projector is really nice but doesn't have video ratio control to support anamorphic viewing. I do have a lens so I needed an AVR with ratio control. I also wanted Audyssey x32 to equalize the IB sub and the room. I bought an Integra 70.2 which was one of the only AVR to have all I needed. I have 8 seats in the room, 4 per row. I ran the Audyssey setup and used all 8 positions and got ready to be blown away. I wasn't, it sounded real good but I felt it wasn't quit what I expested. I tried different settings, turned Audyssey off and on, changed crossover settings and had it sounding best I could. Everyone who came by was blown away. I have since added 12 acoustic panels on the side and rear walls, which helped. One day I was playing around in the room listening to music on my phone and needed to go upstairs to do some things. I have a pair of Klipschorns in the living room and am running a old HK 7200 in stereo to feed them. I plugged the phone in and cranked them up and was really surprised that this sounded better than the movie room. The living room is similar size but more open. I was perplexed as to why this setup soundes better. My wife came home from work and I took her to the movie room, plugged the phone in, cranked up a song and asked her how it sounded. She said it sounds great. I then took her to the living room and did the same thing. As soon as the music started she began to smile. I asked why she was smileing and she said it sounds better in here.(the living room is her room) and I agreed. I said I have 7 speakers, 4 subs, acoustic treatment, Audyssey etc in the movie room and your plain ole living room with 2 speakers sounds better. She smiled and said (well thats Ok) and I said no it's not. A couple of weeks ago the Integra died and was sent out for repair under warranty. I moved the HK to the movie room temporarily and guess what the sound blew me away. I am really surprised the Harmon Kardon was the difference. No eq to the subs or room and everything sounder so much better. Now I have an Integra that does what I need except sound good and a Harmon Kardon that sound incredible but has none of the features I need. What to do? I would never imagine an AVR can make as much difference.

[derrickdj1]

Sell the Integra and buy some individual component to cover your needs. Is the room over treated? Do you really need Addysee, many people don't have and have very nice HT's. A mini DSP can be used for the subs.

[chambers1517]

I don't think the room is overtreated, it sounds great with the HK. The biggest positive difference I think Audyssey makes is in the very low frequency maybe below 40hz or so. I need video ratio control also due to the fact I have an anamorphic setup.

[jvanhambelgium]

Any measurements of the room ? Acoustically I mean. (eg. RT60 reverberation times etc)

Very hard to believe you go through all this process of constructing a fine room without making a single measurement.

Adding "a couple of panels" might actually worsen things...

4 subs ? You placed them according to the book ? Or just how they "look" the best ?

[mustang guy]

What the Audyssey is doing is manipulating the sounds to give the best overall experience for all listening positions and to make all the speakers match the THX or whatever standards. With 8 seating positions being measured, there is a lot of adjusting going on. I have had the same problem as you, and am currently running the highest Integra Pre-pro there is. Here is what I did. After running Audyssey, I went in and adjusted the crossover levels for each speaker to around 50Hz, set the LFE at 120HZ, turned up the sub gain, changed the volume readout to be 0db at THX reference level, and then I had a great sounding system.

YMMV as you have a lot of treatments and I don't. One thing I think may also be going on is that Audyssey is removing standing waves of crucial frequencies at measured positions by adjusting those frequencies slightly. This can't be good! It seems it would be better to have a single sweet spot measurement, and be done with it. If you sit in that chair, you get the best sound. Other seats in the theater will be missing some stuff. I think I may try running Audyssey again soon to see what that does overall..

[Fish]

The cold hard facts are that HK sounds better than Onkyo. Without anything it beats Onkyo with everything, I know most of the "science" crowd don't like it but that's a fact jack. What do you need that current HK's don't have? I have several Onkyos cause they are dirt cheap and have great features. Come winter though when I start listening more I'll be wanting to toss em'.

[derrickdj1]

I have been timkering with my DSP amp over the last month trying different thing with the xo, xo slopes, 8 band EQ, variou filters, PEQ, DEQ and what I have found is that not much needs to be done under 63 Hz. A bass boost around 20-25 Hz and to cut one peak. I also found that I don't like a flat response and like a little peak in the 35-50 Hz area for a better mid bass slam. The key frequency to control are the 2nd and 3rd harmonic which are clearly more audible.

[LarryC]

The cold hard facts are that HK sounds better than Onkyo. Without anything it beats Onkyo with everything, I know most of the "science" crowd don't like it but that's a fact jack. What do you need that current HK's don't have? I have several Onkyos cause they are dirt cheap and have great features.

I agree! Klipsch put an Onkyo Integra into its listening room in its Indy HQ, in place of its fine Aragon electronics, and it sounded like crap on classical music. HK has always sounded great to me.

[VT Hokies]

I will tell you that in my opinion Audyssey does more harm then good. I have owned many Audyssey based systems and in most instances in multiple rooms I preferred the sound with Audyssey off. If I were in your shoes I would think seriously about running a DSP Anti mode or possibly look into the Anthem AVR's. When I switched from Audyssey to ARC in the Anthem it made a huge difference in my somewhat treated room. I like that it only handles up to 5Khz. I'm a believer in not messing with the upper frequencies too much.

[billybob]

I installed the H/K avr 146 lowend receiver and turned it on my friends house with no adjusting. It sounded better by far than anything there had heard before. Left him to toy with the idea that when he can find the built in OSD in the avr, he can do x-over settings,etc. to tune it in better to his WAF liking. At 30 watts? per channel, he should have all he needs. They sell more advanced models, of course. TheH/K I paid $80 bucks for off of crag'slist. The 2007 avr was never over $400 retail.

[Aj72]

On page 777 of the "klipsch owner thread" on the AVS forum there is a link by popalock Under Crest Factor heading (post 23293) to a 60minute video which among other interesting things discusses room treatments and the overuse of room correction tools (Audyssey included) and physical treatments. Flies in the face of popular belief but makes a bit of sense to me. If you can find it it may answer some of your questions about your own setup.

[McMiRA]

Did you try the audyssey flat curve? Sounds much better to my ears than the regular curve. My receiver also has a curve that runs audyssey to everything but excludes the front l/r. If yours has it give that a try. Audyssey is finicky creature.

[chambers1517]

Thanks for the replies. I have tried the Integra with Audyssey off. I think the Audyssey actuall helps the Integra. I thought maybe the HK had more power but the Integra has plenty of power. Both consume about 1400 watts. The HK is definately more massive but the Integra is big. The surrounds seem way more subdued on the Integra even though the levels are matched the same. I am a strong believer in the placebo effect in audio but this is such a huge difference that even my tin eared wife can tell a difference.

[garyrc]

Chambers, sounds like you have a great system now. Have you experimented with diffusion? I tend to like a small number of absorbers, and a large number of diffusors and other diffusing surfaces.

Here is my experience with Audyssey, which, on balance, I recommend:

• My system sounds better with Audyssey than without
• Although, with many music CDs and SACDs I prefer Audyssey FLAT, with Blu-ray movies, after many tests, I generally prefer regular Audyssey (not A flat), also called Audyssey Reference, which -- relative only to Audyssey FLAT -- rolls off the treble by 2 dB at 10K Hz, and by 6 dB at 20K Hz. I had a hard time admitting that, because rolling off the high treble sounded like a screwy idea to me. I am quite aware that SMPTE advocates an even greater roll-off for commercial movie theaters, and a slight roll off (but greater than Audyssey Reference) for small screening rooms, but I didn't want to lose the shimmering overtones I love. Turns out they are just slightly less prominent with Audyssey Reference, which on my system, in my room, still provides about 6.5 dB treble boost at 16K Hz, which is very near the average setting I used to use on my Luxman with the same Klipschorns. Audyssey Reference has an advantage over the Luxman tone controls, though, because while boosting at 16K, it holds the response at flat at 8K by sending the speakers 4 dB less at 8K than at 16K, while still providing a little boost around 4K. It also makes the response of the two Khorns and the center Belle Klipsch, from the center listening position, virtually identical above 3.5 K Hz., and prettty close below that.
• I had to turn the sub up a full 7 dB over where Audyssey set it to bring it up to the same level as the Khorns, Belle, and Heresy II surrounds, according to the Marantz pre/pro test tones (separate from Audyssey), and a couple of test disks. I noticed quite a few complaints online asserting that Audyssey tends to set the subs too low. One possible reason is that the vibration of the bass sound shakes the floor and travels up to the microphone, making said microphone think there is more bass in the air than there really is.
• One thing Audyssey Reference may do (that Audyssey FLAT does not) is make the sound a little sweeter and less harsh, especially with problem disks, by lowering the level a bit around 2K Hz (The BBC Dip). Chris, the CTO of Audyssey and the primary initial researcher, says he has never heard a speaker/room combination that was not improved by that small dip. Perhaps the BBC has had a similar experience. I heard some BBC speakers at a recital that sounded much better than they should.
• After going back and forth many times, I decided the sound was better with the Khorns on "Large," rather than "Small," with the normal sub signal being sent to the sub, and the full range being sent to the Khorns. The Audyssey people hate this idea, but Marantz recommended the "Large" part of it on screen. With my system, room and Audyssey Reference, the "Large" position produces a few dB more upper bass between about 90 and 125 Hz. There is more impact, perhaps because the Khorns are much better at impact than the sub until you get down to about 40 Hz. The Belle does seem better on "small," however.
• My ears were more pleased with results when the Audyssey microphone positions were on the middle three seats, than when scattered over the five seat width.

[Mongo171]

I like that it only handles up to 5000Mhz.

5GHz??? [:|]

[McMiRA]

Or is it 1.21 gigawatts?

[VT Hokies]

Whoops, hit the wrong button but I think you know what I mean. Sorry about that.

I fixed my typo so easy guys. lol []

[dimanata2007]

I think my question is very close to the topic and Im sorry if its not.

I've been browsing e-net and stumbled upon some very interesting info regarding power output:

*********************http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/test-report-pioneer-elite-vsx-52-av-receiver?page=0,3

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/test-report-pioneer-vsx-60-av-receiver?page=0,3

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/test-report-denon-avr-991-av-receiver?page=0,3****************************

I also went through few more tests and looks like some manufacturers are lying about their power rating more than other. For example Pioneer/Elite receivers (in 5-7 speakers configuration) pushed out 80-85% of their rated wattage, but Onkio and Yamaha did very unimpressive and pushed out less than 50% of what they shouldve:

*********************http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/test-report-onkyo-tx-nr727-av-receiver?page=0,2

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/test-report-onkyo-tx-nr509-av-receiver?page=0,2

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/yamaha-rx-a3020-av-receiver?page=0,3*********************************

and these are not $300 receivers!!!

Looks like Pioneer/Elite and Denon are more honest about their product power output than other brands. Is it normal? Do you think 45-55 watt per channel even enough to fill up decent size room with clear sound?

Any other info about power output of the mid line Pioneer/Yamaha/Denon?

P.S. how do I separate links from text?

[billybob]

BTW, Harman Kardon is supposed to be all channels driven full bandwidth when determining their watts per channel. AVR 146 = 30wpc, and 50wpc using just the front L-R. Some others I read do other to get higher wpc.

[dimanata2007]

30WPC... is it enough for anything?

not sure how much my 110WPC rated pioneer pushing out , but I never turn the volume knob over 45 (100 is the maximum) and at just over 70 it's getting uncomfortably loud to stay in the room.

if I would go all the to a 100 do I have a chance to "clip" my speakers? front and center 150W rated (600 peak), but surrounds only 100W (400 peak).