Moderators Youthman Posted April 21, 2014 Author Moderators Share Posted April 21, 2014 Part of this deal was that he didn't have to say anything if he didn't want to. The deal really only involved me agreeing to do the work for no charge if he was willing to write up some procedures for getting the crossovers out and back in again That is correct. I know I'm not obligated to share my thoughts but to me, that's one of the joys of this forum....to share our experiences with others. I have no problem sharing what my ears hear once I'm able to carve out some uninterrupted time. I tried to sit down this evening and my wife says, "You aren't turning that on are you....I have a really bad headache." Guess there will be no listening session tonight. Haha. Pressuring for comments is exactly what I wanted to avoid, because it gives the impression that he got "free" services if he would shill for me. I personally don't feel pressured, I just think everyone is curious. This thread has 20 pages of comments so that in itself says that this is something that is of interest to the community. So that you hear it from my own words, at NO time did Dean ever ask for me to give any form of rave review. He told me I could share my thoughts or not, that was up to me. I knew going into this, that our agreement would benefit us both. I would get a pair of DeanG Xovers and Dean would get detailed documentation on the removal and re-installation of the crossovers and he would get his hands on his first RF-7ii Crossovers and have the opportunity to upgrade them. This adds to his experience as well as to his portfolio of crossovers he has worked on. Even with precautions in place, I still ended up with a thread that inferred as much, and was personally embarrassing to me (which is probably why someone decided to anonymously bump the thread every morning for a week. Of course nothing is "anonymous" with software these days, and I requested that the thread be removed). That thread was unfortunate but I don't believe that is an accurate representation of the vast population here in the Klipsch Community. There will always be doubters, skeptics and critics and I guess that just comes with the territory. I've always been of the mind set that it is important to do the right thing, regardless of what others may say. In the end, the truth will prevail. Here are Youthman's private comments to me. He has excellent hearing, and does a great job at describing what's in play here. At this point, I really just want him to get as much rest as possible and get better. As far as I'm concerned, My wife doesn't think my hearing is that great...."What did you say honey?" I've never claimed to have "critical ears" or by any means consider myself even remotely an audiophile. So far, in my limited listening sessions, what I have heard was the opposite of what I thought I was going to hear. I anticipated the sound to be "enhanced", for the sound to actually change. Instead of hearing "more", I heard "less". It's as if someone has stripped away all of the extra sound that isn't supposed to be there and you are left with just the notes, the vocals and the subtle nuances of the music that we have grown to love about Klipsch. Do they sound different, most definitely. I for myself want to sit down more and see if I can articulate what my ears are hearing. I figure if I can hear a difference in almost brand new crossovers, it's no wonder those that upgrade LaScalas, Chorus, Forte etc have really enjoyed the sound as these are much older crossovers and likely benefit even moreso than an almost new pair of crossovers that are in perfect working condition. Youth I would love to hear your thoughts on brightness after the x over upgrade , lets say with Adele 21 Will do. I believe my mother-n-law has the CD. I'll borrow it from her. I have 5 of the songs from that album that I ripped to iTunes when she bought the CD "Rolling in the Deep", "Turning Tables", "Set Fire to the Rain", "He Won't Go" and "Someone Like You". Is there a certain song you are interested in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A1UC Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 (edited) Part of this deal was that he didn't have to say anything if he didn't want to. The deal really only involved me agreeing to do the work for no charge if he was willing to write up some procedures for getting the crossovers out and back in again That is correct. I know I'm not obligated to share my thoughts but to me, that's one of the joys of this forum....to share our experiences with others. I have no problem sharing what my ears hear once I'm able to carve out some uninterrupted time. I tried to sit down this evening and my wife says, "You aren't turning that on are you....I have a really bad headache." Guess there will be no listening session tonight. Haha. Pressuring for comments is exactly what I wanted to avoid, because it gives the impression that he got "free" services if he would shill for me. I personally don't feel pressured, I just think everyone is curious. This thread has 20 pages of comments so that in itself says that this is something that is of interest to the community. So that you hear it from my own words, at NO time did Dean ever ask for me to give any form of rave review. He told me I could share my thoughts or not, that was up to me. I knew going into this, that our agreement would benefit us both. I would get a pair of DeanG Xovers and Dean would get detailed documentation on the removal and re-installation of the crossovers and he would get his hands on his first RF-7ii Crossovers and have the opportunity to upgrade them. This adds to his experience as well as to his portfolio of crossovers he has worked on. Even with precautions in place, I still ended up with a thread that inferred as much, and was personally embarrassing to me (which is probably why someone decided to anonymously bump the thread every morning for a week. Of course nothing is "anonymous" with software these days, and I requested that the thread be removed). That thread was unfortunate but I don't believe that is an accurate representation of the vast population here in the Klipsch Community. There will always be doubters, skeptics and critics and I guess that just comes with the territory. I've always been of the mind set that it is important to do the right thing, regardless of what others may say. In the end, the truth will prevail. Here are Youthman's private comments to me. He has excellent hearing, and does a great job at describing what's in play here. At this point, I really just want him to get as much rest as possible and get better. As far as I'm concerned, My wife doesn't think my hearing is that great...."What did you say honey?" I've never claimed to have "critical ears" or by any means consider myself even remotely an audiophile. So far, in my limited listening sessions, what I have heard was the opposite of what I thought I was going to hear. I anticipated the sound to be "enhanced", for the sound to actually change. Instead of hearing "more", I heard "less". It's as if someone has stripped away all of the extra sound that isn't supposed to be there and you are left with just the notes, the vocals and the subtle nuances of the music that we have grown to love about Klipsch. Do they sound different, most definitely. I for myself want to sit down more and see if I can articulate what my ears are hearing. I figure if I can hear a difference in almost brand new crossovers, it's no wonder those that upgrade LaScalas, Chorus, Forte etc have really enjoyed the sound as these are much older crossovers and likely benefit even moreso than an almost new pair of crossovers that are in perfect working condition. Youth I would love to hear your thoughts on brightness after the x over upgrade , lets say with Adele 21 Will do. I believe my mother-n-law has the CD. I'll borrow it from her. I have 5 of the songs from that album that I ripped to iTunes when she bought the CD "Rolling in the Deep", "Turning Tables", "Set Fire to the Rain", "He Won't Go" and "Someone Like You". Is there a certain song you are interested in? Edited April 21, 2014 by A1UC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A1UC Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Part of this deal was that he didn't have to say anything if he didn't want to. The deal really only involved me agreeing to do the work for no charge if he was willing to write up some procedures for getting the crossovers out and back in again That is correct. I know I'm not obligated to share my thoughts but to me, that's one of the joys of this forum....to share our experiences with others. I have no problem sharing what my ears hear once I'm able to carve out some uninterrupted time. I tried to sit down this evening and my wife says, "You aren't turning that on are you....I have a really bad headache." Guess there will be no listening session tonight. Haha. Pressuring for comments is exactly what I wanted to avoid, because it gives the impression that he got "free" services if he would shill for me. I personally don't feel pressured, I just think everyone is curious. This thread has 20 pages of comments so that in itself says that this is something that is of interest to the community. So that you hear it from my own words, at NO time did Dean ever ask for me to give any form of rave review. He told me I could share my thoughts or not, that was up to me. I knew going into this, that our agreement would benefit us both. I would get a pair of DeanG Xovers and Dean would get detailed documentation on the removal and re-installation of the crossovers and he would get his hands on his first RF-7ii Crossovers and have the opportunity to upgrade them. This adds to his experience as well as to his portfolio of crossovers he has worked on. Even with precautions in place, I still ended up with a thread that inferred as much, and was personally embarrassing to me (which is probably why someone decided to anonymously bump the thread every morning for a week. Of course nothing is "anonymous" with software these days, and I requested that the thread be removed). That thread was unfortunate but I don't believe that is an accurate representation of the vast population here in the Klipsch Community. There will always be doubters, skeptics and critics and I guess that just comes with the territory. I've always been of the mind set that it is important to do the right thing, regardless of what others may say. In the end, the truth will prevail. Here are Youthman's private comments to me. He has excellent hearing, and does a great job at describing what's in play here. At this point, I really just want him to get as much rest as possible and get better. As far as I'm concerned, My wife doesn't think my hearing is that great...."What did you say honey?" I've never claimed to have "critical ears" or by any means consider myself even remotely an audiophile. So far, in my limited listening sessions, what I have heard was the opposite of what I thought I was going to hear. I anticipated the sound to be "enhanced", for the sound to actually change. Instead of hearing "more", I heard "less". It's as if someone has stripped away all of the extra sound that isn't supposed to be there and you are left with just the notes, the vocals and the subtle nuances of the music that we have grown to love about Klipsch. Do they sound different, most definitely. I for myself want to sit down more and see if I can articulate what my ears are hearing. I figure if I can hear a difference in almost brand new crossovers, it's no wonder those that upgrade LaScalas, Chorus, Forte etc have really enjoyed the sound as these are much older crossovers and likely benefit even moreso than an almost new pair of crossovers that are in perfect working condition. Youth I would love to hear your thoughts on brightness after the x over upgrade , lets say with Adele 21 Will do. I believe my mother-n-law has the CD. I'll borrow it from her. I have 5 of the songs from that album that I ripped to iTunes when she bought the CD "Rolling in the Deep", "Turning Tables", "Set Fire to the Rain", "He Won't Go" and "Someone Like You". Is there a certain song you are interested in? No most of her songs with a bright speaker will cause fatigue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted April 21, 2014 Author Moderators Share Posted April 21, 2014 Gotcha. I'll listen to them and let you know. I own the RF-7, RF-7ii and RF-83 and did a comparison thread awhile back. If the RF-7's are too bright for your taste, the RF-7ii's are definitely not as bright and the RF-83's are even smoother sounding. The RF-7's can easily cause ear fatigue. I'll let you know how the RF-7ii's fare with Adelle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A1UC Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I had the RF-7ll's and for HT it was hard to beat but they sounded way to bright for music , at least for me they did Thanks let me know what you think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 (edited) If someone shovels my driveway for free and does a bad job. I'm definitely not going to say it was a bad job.I respect your opinion youth but at this point i think it's impossible to have a unbiased opinion. Just saying . By the way I'm sure they sound great but just pointing out that your in a no win scenario with a review. Edited April 21, 2014 by reference_head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 As dean pointed out saying nothing might be a good option Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 (edited) I am not sure how the whole OBLIGATION issue has even entered into the equation... we're all understandably curious and excited about a 7ii enhancement. That is what is driving our interest. Edited April 21, 2014 by Schu 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted April 21, 2014 Author Moderators Share Posted April 21, 2014 (edited) If someone shovels my driveway for free and does a bad job. I'm definitely not going to say it was a bad job. I respect your opinion youth but at this point i think it's impossible to have a unbiased opinion. Just saying . By the way I'm sure they sound great but just pointing out that your in a no win scenario with a review. I appreciate your opinion Reference but I'm not sure I follow your logic. If someone "upgraded" the engine in your car for free and as a result, let's say it ran slower or made noise, you still would say, "Oh that guy did a super job on my engine"? Seriously? Just because someone does a service or free, doesn't obligate a positive review. In my mind, a good job warrants a good review, a bad job warrants a bad review, Plain and simple. And for what it's worth, if I would have paid for the upgrade, how would that make my opinion then unbiased? My goal isn't to "win" anything with a review. If at the end of the day my review sounds biased to you, so be it. My feelings will not be offended. I don't know anyone that owns gear that isn't somewhat biased simply because it is their gear. Edited April 21, 2014 by Youthman 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZombieWoof Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 with R/H's logic if you post your biased ? ? Youthman I don't agree you all the time but you're a straight shooter & I trust that you say it as you see it oR hear it as this case maybe . post your thoughts , I feel I know your views after 11,000 posts well enough to cut thru any perceived bias . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZombieWoof Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 If someone shovels my driveway for free and does a bad job. I'm definitely not going to say it was a bad job. Myself , if a bad job was done I'd tell that someone they did a bad job it being free or otherwise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Well my post was in regard to the above topic on if he's obligated. I trust youth also he's a good person. But no mater how you spin it dean did youth a favor. Everyone's different but I personally could not say anything bad about a favor someone did for me. No way no how would not happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 (edited) That's why if it was me it' would be really hard to give an unbiased review. After all I'm only human. I'm not trying to discredit your opinion youth. I was showing why it's not an easy review for you. Maybe I'm wrong but it would be hard for me in your spot. Edited April 21, 2014 by reference_head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 If someone shovels my driveway for free and does a bad job. I'm definitely not going to say it was a bad job.Myself , if a bad job was done I'd tell that someone they did a bad job it being free or otherwise Mike your saying you would tell someone who did you a favor that he did a bad job? So you wake up one morning and the neighbor shoveled out part of your driveway. But he did a bad job and you had to do 75% of it over. You would tell him he did a bad job? I couldn't do it no way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 (edited) If someone shovels my driveway for free and does a bad job. I'm definitely not going to say it was a bad job. I respect your opinion youth but at this point i think it's impossible to have a unbiased opinion. Just saying . By the way I'm sure they sound great but just pointing out that your in a no win scenario with a review. I appreciate your opinion Reference but I'm not sure I follow your logic. If someone "upgraded" the engine in your car for free and as a result, let's say it ran slower or made noise, you still would say, "Oh that guy did a super job on my engine"? Seriously? Just because someone does a service or free, doesn't obligate a positive review. In my mind, a good job warrants a good review, a bad job warrants a bad review, Plain and simple.And for what it's worth, if I would have paid for the upgrade, how would that make my opinion then unbiased? My goal isn't to "win" anything with a review. If at the end of the day my review sounds biased to you, so be it. My feelings will not be offended. I don't know anyone that owns gear that isn't somewhat biased simply because it is their gear. Again my comment was meant in your defense. Pointing out that someone did you a favor. So your job to give an unbiased review would be that much harder. I was backing you up. Not calling you out . We are all bias to a point. But some things can make it even more so with no fault to ourselves. Edited April 21, 2014 by reference_head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Just for the record I'm a huge believer in xo being a great upgrade. They can have a big impact on the sound of a speaker. My ears have heard the difference and it can be night and day. So my comments are in no way disputing any upgrade that deans xo have. It's been well documented by many people of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willland Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 (edited) You can look at the crossover mod(upgrade, different parts,etc.) as a favor from Dean to Michael but I see it a little differently. Before this point in time in order for Dean to have the opportunity to perform an RF-7II crossover mod, he would have to purchase($$$) a pair of RF-7II's, someone would have to give up $$$ for a "prototype" modification, or someone would have to offer up their pair of stock crossovers for a never before performed modification(free to donator). Was it a generous offer? Absolutely, but Youth was under no obligation to give a raving review, nor was he to trash the man's work either. Just report what he hears. Dean put out there plainly to Youthman to give an honest assessment of what he now hears, good or bad, and that is just what Youth did. Bill Edited April 21, 2014 by willland 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A1UC Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 (edited) I just don't see what would be wrong with youth being honest about what he likes and don't like about the upgrade ? Would it be better if he just said nothing and let other members pay for a x over upgrade and take their chances - good or bad ? This is how most people make decisions by other peoples reviews . Edited April 21, 2014 by A1UC 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 (edited) There are three sets of comments about what he thinks, why are some of you acting like he hasn't said anything? Some want more words, which aren't really going to add or detract from what he's already said. Does anyone here think I would have done this without already knowing what the outcome would be? I've been doing since 2004 and have a disk drive filled with feedback. I also don't want a situation where the impression is given that the loudspeaker in its stock form isn't a good performer. I kind of walk a fine line around here. Edited April 21, 2014 by DeanG 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A1UC Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 (edited) There are three sets of comments about what he thinks, why are some of you acting like he hasn't said anything? Some want more words, which aren't really going to add or detract from what he's already said. Does anyone here think I would have done this without already knowing what the outcome would be? I've been doing since 2004 and have a disk drive filled with feedback. I also don't want a situation where the impression is given that the loudspeaker in its stock form isn't a good performer. I kind of walk a fine line around here. All the comments I read it seems like youth hasn't spent enough time to be sure what he is hearing or is having a problem explaining what he is hearing , many people talk themselves into hearing or not hearing things - another issue he has not heard his speakers for awhile so unless the change jumps out at him he might not be sure what he is hearing in comparison . I owned a pair of RF-7ll's and miss the bass it was really decent but I don't miss the brightness of the horns , I figured if there was a way to tame them with a x over upgrade I would consider them again . Edited April 21, 2014 by A1UC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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