Lascandalous scala - oh dear oh dear....

[maxg]

rant "I know I should be relieved really. My findings have saved my a good $750 in that I am staying with my Heresys for the foreseeable but somehow I am utterly depressed.

Went over to check out the LaScala's with a friend (who had KHorns and switched to Quad 989's).

First we tried out the TT - playing though his Quad pre mated to a SET amp with some weirdo tube running at 15-18 wpc.

We played DSOTM (always seem to these days - Greek recording like my own) and it was embarrassingly bad.

The highs were piercing, mids strong and pronounced but the bass was non-existent, and when I say non-existant I mean........well.......lets put it this way.....my Heresy's WITHOUT the Rel sub blow the **** out of this thing.

Actually I cant say there was no bass at all - something was booming and farting around the room - I am just not sure what it was - either the bass or an errant dog.

OK - obviously something wrong with the TT - switch to the Meridian CD transport with the separate DAC and separate jitter box (!!?? Huh),

Started with three blind mice tester CD that I also own - track 2 - midnight sugar. Listen to the Double bass the owner said. What - that twangy thing in the background said I.

Its the cables - we was using crappy ones - half an hour changing them - retest - better but no banana.

OK something is going seriously awry cos right now this system sounds worse than the standard car stereo in the Land Rover.

Disconnect everything and reconnect it cos this guy maybe drinks at lunchtime if ya know what I mean...

Nope.

Stimied - no idea where to go from here (other than for beer - several of them so far and home to listen to my current system which sounds absolutely brilliant right now (love beer))

Now I know that LaScalas are better speakers than Heresy's - have to be ....right?

Well on the evidence so far...........not for me.......apologies to all LaScala owners but either this guy really dropped his balls on the front end or there is something wrong in the state of Denmark.

As his front end cost 8 times what mine did there aint no way mine is gonna do a bang up job.

Maybe its the solid floors - it aint the rest fo the accoustics - I tried every distance from 1 to 5 meters from the centre line between the speakers - was worse in some areas - but was bad in all.

All I can say is - absolute f**k w**K S**t p**s and bollocks!

One seriously gutted listener - I had the money burning a whole in my pocket too!"

End rant

Fart - I lied

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My System: http://aca.gr/pop_maxg.htm

[Deang]

ROTFLOL -- Well, with that room those poor Scalas never had a chance to begin with.

In a very overdamped room they probably sound half decent.

I had a feeling it would be an assault on your hearing. I still haven't recovered from my experience with them this weekend.

f>

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Deanf>s>

Klipsch RF7s - AE-25 DJH - AE-3 DJH - Sony 9000ES

f>s>

This message has been edited by deang on 07-10-2002 at 02:49 PM

[justin_tx_16]

That bad?!

"Fart - I Lied"

Were they bad then?

confused...

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-justin

SoundWise Support

A technical help site created by me and my fellow Klipschers

promediatech@Klipsch.com /1-888-554-5665 - RA# 800-554-7724 ext 5

s>

[mobile homeless]

The LaScala can probably sound very open and alive in the right room... but many I have talked to have not given these speakers the thumbs up, especially in comparison to the Cornwalls. Still, Colin and Mike Lindsey as well as a host of others are happy with them. The horn loaded bass can probably be very tuneful and nice...but it will be a lot less depending on the system. And with that terrible room with tile, I can only imagine....

The tube in that picture almost looks like the high voltage 845/211 etc. This can be a harsh sounding tube if not done correctly. It is one of the most powerful tubes for SET amps you can find. But I dont like them as much as some of the other more accessable Triodes.

Glad you got to audition the speakers before purchase. Remember, system synergy really does count here. Who knows what was up.

kh

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Phono Linn Sondek LP-12 Valhalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point

CD Player Rega Planet

Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified

Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks

Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect

Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover

Links system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s>

[anarchist]

Hi mh,

They're in Greece - tile floors dominate. Max's listening room has similar construction as well. I can recall living in S.FL. with tile floors - my KG4's would overpower the senses with highs if you listened to rock music.

Speaking of home decor, Max, what the heck are those things sitting on top of your Heresies? Those 'nic-naks' are almost bigger than the speakers they are perched on.

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HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere

Audio - Heresy, KG4

[j-malotky]

Max

This sounds odd. Are you sure the woofers were running and not blown. Or something was blocking the horn opening? Maybe a blown crossover or fuse??

I do agree with the above posts. Horn speakers do sound better in a larger room. Were they set up in the back bedroom of his house or something???

These speakers must have been damaged....

Don't stop your search. LaScalla's have a lot more bass than Heresys. At least listen to another pair when you have the chance...

JM

[HDBRbuilder]

Either something is wrong with what he is pushing INTO those LaScalas...OR something is wrong with those LaScalas, themselves...it takes more than a tile floor to cause what you say you heard(or DIDN'T hear)!!

I would bet that those were spray painted white without removing the woofer from them. And I would also bet that there is a huge pile of overspray back in the motorboard portion of the doghouse and on the face of the woofer cone in each of them!!...That will definitely mess things up in the sound of them!!

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[Deang]

Painted White? That's just raw birch -- look again, you can even see the grain.

I seriously doubt the possibility of the woofer(s) not working, I mean -- that is just a ridiculously obvious thing. If you have ever heard a speaker with the woofer unhooked then you know what I'm saying here.

Max -- I say go back and grab those damn things. Tell the owner you want to hear them IN YOUR ROOM on YOUR SYSTEM. Get them home and give them a good going over without distraction. Check the drivers, and the wiring to the drivers, and make sure they are not running out of phase.

If they flatten out in your house, producing something in the area of music, maybe you should consider buying them, and modifying them with different networks.

If YOU think they sound bad, then YOU KNOW they sound bad to the owner also. Offer him $1500 and tell him that in the present condition they are not very "musical" and that you will have to modify them with new networks (Al's crossovers).

That should take care of that money burning a hole in your pocket

f>

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Deanf>s>

Klipsch RF7s - AE-25 DJH - AE-3 DJH - Sony 9000ES

f>s>

[Klipschguy]

Hello all,

I wasn't going to say anything about this topic, but since the subject came up, I will (and I'll probably regret it too).

I spent a lot of time on my recent vacation listening to my friend's La Scalas (I helped him choose that particular speaker some years back). While they really sound great, and the dynamics fom that big ole K400 is really cool on some songs, those speakers are NO match for my Cornwalls for smooth, balanced, full, LIFELIKE music reproduction. For one thing the La Scalas have almost no bass, unless it is added with a tone control (instant coloration). Secondly, compared to the Cornwalls, the midrange is beamy - you can move your head around to raise and lower the volume of the midrange. Thirdly, the bass has a nice, tight quality to it, but the edges of the bass horn vibrate so tremendously, it seems to reduce the clarity. The Cornwall's bass, although a little boomier than the La Scala, seems much clearer, deeper and "true to life" to my ears. As for dynamic range, the La Scalas win hands down, but it certainly comes at a price.

Don't get me wrong, I love all the big Heritage Klipsch, and La Scalas are a great choice, but for low to moderately loud listening levels, I much prefer the Cornwalls (as for CRANKIN', BTW, I'll go with the La Scalas). Funny, way back I had chosen the Cornwalls over the La Scalas (same price used) and after reading some threads here recently, I began to wonder why - now I remember.

I guess there is no accounting for taste. If some of you out there feel like the La Scalas walk all over the Cornwalls, then DO NOT get Cornwalls, get the La Scalas and vice versa. It certainly is important to get what sounds best to YOUR OWN EARS.

Warm regards to all,

Andy

This message has been edited by Klipschguy on 07-10-2002 at 05:58 PM

[Allan Songer]

I've owned my Cornwalls for a long, long time and they have been in and out (usually in) of my main system a bunch of times. Once I replaced them with Quad 57s for about THREE YEARS. What the hell was I thinking?!?!?

Anyway, a few years back I scored a pair of mid 70's Belle Klipsch from a frat-house at USC here in SoCal for just about nothing ($300). I really thought they were going to replace the Cornwalls. The Belles were rough, oiled walnut boxes and I spent about 100 hours making them beautiful before I even hooked them up!

When I finally did put them in my system I was FLOORED by the total lack of bottom end when compared with the Cornwall. I too thought the woofers mush have been ****ed up in some way, but after checking everything out I realized that the speakers were fine, but that I didn't like them very much. Even the old Quads had WAY more bottom end!!

After living with and fooling around with the Belles for about a month I sold them and put the Cornwalls back where they belonged and got down on my knees and begged forgiveness for my infidelity.

[Deang]

Don't the Scala's, Belles, K-horns, and original Cornwalls all share the same drivers? It's amazing to me that they would sound so different from one another.f>

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Deanf>s>

Klipsch RF7s - AE-25 DJH - AE-3 DJH - Sony 9000ES

f>s>

[lynnm]

I think that even given identical drivers each of those speaker systems require that they be optimally placed within a room and further that Belles and LS's -(which are after all essentially identical)are somewhat more critical in this respect than the somewhat smaller and non horn loaded Cornwalls.

Before anyone decides to tour my innards via my throat I know that the CW's feature hornloaded mids and tweeters but the Bass driver is not horn loaded.

My understanding is that generally speaking a horn loaded bass bin requires significantly more room volume to strut its stuff than a non horn loaded speaker. If conditions are optimal the LaScala,Belle or Khorn will outperform the Cornwall but if the environmental constraints are severe the Cornwall may well sound better in a given space than its larger siblings.

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It is meet to recall that the Great Green Heron rarely flies upside down in the moonlight - (Foo Ling ca.1900)

[HDBRbuilder]

Dean,

The fact they share the same woofer for a driver doesn't really mean that much since there are two completely different horn designs involved in the bass bins and another has a ported enclosure.

Bye the way...the pic on MY pc came out really crappy and it appeared the speakers were painted WHITE...I think I pretty much KNOW what raw birch looks like when I see it...LOL!...I have been handling it for over 35 years!! LOL!

Either way...it is true the Cornwall has more bottom end than the LaScala...I won't deny that fact..BUT the LaScala's horn loading gives what bass it DOES produce much more Clarity.

Another point here is that crud, cobwebs, dust, etc...will build up in the back end of the LaScala bass bin. And over time this will cause problems with performance. It is best to occasionally remove the doghouse door, pull the woofer, and take some compressed air and blow out the back end of the bass bin through the motorboard manifold opening...you will be SURPRISED how much crap will come out of there!!

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This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 07-11-2002 at 12:01 AM

[maxg]

Ok - its morning and I am sober. One or 2 points to clarify:

Fart - I lied - refers to the end-rant statement, sadly the rest is all too true.

The reason I took my ex-KHorn owning friend with me is because he has a good working knowledge of speakers (built a pair himself as well as much modifying his KHorns).

Both speakers were functioning properly - all cross-over points were firmly connected and in both of our opinions the thing was working properly but sounded bad for some other reasons.

The reasons, I am sure, are a combination of his front end along with the solid floors and other room acoustic issues.

The reason I cannot factor that out of the equation is that my house is constructed in much the same way and although I have much more furnishings to absorb the boom I fear I will still face huge problems - especially on the front end.

I had figured that I would simply be able to swap out the Heresy's for the next model up in the Heritage range and merely have a few tweaks to perform to get the sound I have now but better, bigger and louder.

I realize on reflection that this was hopelessly naive. There is a quantum leap from Heresy to LaScala and that will reflect itself all the way up the chain of components right to the source. In other words I would be opening a real can of worms here and be moving to far away from what I actually want - i.e. to listen to music each night to relax.

I foresee that making a change of speakers will mean months of listening to a system as opposed to listening to music.

As regards getting these speakers to my house to try the guy lives on the second floor of an appartment building with no elevator and a winding staircase. It would be a lot to ask to get him to cart them down and over to my house on the off-chance they will sound better in my environment and I will buy.

Overall then I have concluded that I will be a Heresy/Rel owner for the foreseeable future and will live with the smaller imaging that provides.

I am, of course, left wondering if Cornwalls, Fortes or Chorus might be a better match but I think I need a break from the frenzy of speaker analysis for a while.

Finally thank you all for acompanying me on this short but frenetic journey.

[jazman]

Belles(LaScalas) VS Cornwalls.

quote:

---

total lack of bottom end when compared with the Cornwall

---

I currently own both Belles and Cornwalls and I do not find the above statement to be accurate. Without a doubt, spec wise the Cornwall has lower frequency response. I have found the low frequency response of Belles to be much better than most here lead to believe. The horn loaded bass and the cone reflex bass sound much different, especially at close range, but the horn loaded bass of the Belles is very good in a large room. My listening room is only medium size as far as floor area, approx 18 by 27, but volume wise, an 18 ft ceiling. Placement of the Belles is more critical than the Cornwalls, but when listened to from a distance of 20 ft or more, they sound amazingly SIMILAR. I know all of us hear diffently and prefer different sonic characteristics, but Belles, and I would extend this to LaScalas, do have bass response. Allen I know you are a serious Jazz listener, and so am I, but I love the clean, fast, bass reproduced by the Belles, especially Jazz, and I'm using 3.5 wpc SET Moondogs! Pop music my son and I listen to on the same system also reproduces the same fast, clean, and full bass sound from Baby Face to Sting. It does however take some amount of extended time listening to each of these speakers to discount intitial impressions and preferences, and get to what you're really hearing.

I do not question your preference or anyone's for Cornwalls. I think they're a hell of a speaker or I would not own them. But I do hope to put the idea to rest that Belles do not have good bass response.

Max,

As I warned earlier, I would suspect the purchase of LaScala's to probably start a chain of upgrade events

within you system, but they are nice speakers. They are surely revealing the upstream input and the poor room setup. It's also easier to soften a room to harsh sound waves than most think. The best to you, whatever and whenever you decide to upgrade.

Klipsch out.

[HDBRbuilder]

My advice is ALSO to grab them up if the price seems reasonable for your location, etc.

There ARE ways around getting what you need/want without having to deal with Grecian bureaucracy/duties...I can help you on this point. Also, if there IS something wrong in those LaScalas, it is likely that the woofers may have been changed out OR that they have gotten some salt moisture to them in initial shipping...which happened on occassion...from what I remember about the overseas shipping from when I worked there. I can also go into this further, if you want.

Either way...you have an opportunity here that you may regret passing up later down the road...but it is YOUR decision, of course.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

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[Randy Bey]

I probably shouldn't have an opinion on this, but that has never stopped me from posting before

There is, IMHO, a big difference between acoustic suspension bass (ala Cornwall) and horn loaded bass (ala LS, Belle, Khorn).

The acoustic suspension has the appearance of greater bass output. Is this due to resonance, or port loading, or whatever, I don't know.

Horn loaded bass is tighter, leaner, and, IMHO, correct.

People that grow accustomed to the flubby bass of the acoustic suspension speaker are often underwhelmed by the bass in a horn. Put your hand in hot water for a minute, then hold it under cold water as an example.

We are all great mixed bags of perception, as incapable of sudden changes in belief as an ocean liner is in turning.

I remember an article from many moons ago where a reviewer compared, of all things, car doors slamming via a microphone, to various speakers, including the Khorn. He stated that the regular speakers had much more low end output, and the car door sounded huge with them. With the khorn, the car door sounded like a car door.

I know the khorn is not a LS, and since I have never actually listened to a LS, I cannot have an opinion on it's bass output. But, all things being equal, I think that I would rather have less bass plus accuracy, than more bass without accuracy.

[Deang]

Max,f> It is not beyond the realm of possibility that your ears just might prefer the sound of Heresy's over larger Heritage, just as several prefer the sound of Cornwalls over the K-horns.

It is truly a shame that some of you Heritage owners will not give the RF7, or the RB5 with a sub -- a fair shake.

I know the mids are not horn loaded, but the response is smooth as a baby's arse, and they really do kick some serious butt, with fantastic imaging.

f>

Randy,f> I believe the Cornwalls are actually slot loaded. I don't think they are acoustic suspension. Personally, I still think acoustic suspension designs have the best bass -- because the air in the box is used to keep the driver under control. OTOH -- this design also has higher IM distortion because the driver has to move further to create the same SPL as compared to bass reflex. Incidently, this is one of the things I really admire about the new Klipsch woofers -- they come very close to the sound of an acoustic suspension bass.

At any rate, hair trigger dynamics that allow a car door slamming to sound like a car door slamming, does not guarantee musicality. There is more to sound than 'accuracy'. I believe you can have 'accuracy' to a fault. This is just my opinion however, and it has nothing to do with conclusions you or others may have reached.

f>

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Deanf>s>

Klipsch RF7s - AE-25 DJH - AE-3 DJH - Sony 9000ES

f>s>

This message has been edited by deang on 07-11-2002 at 08:38 AM

[maxg]

"There is more to sound than 'accuracy'. I believe you can have 'accuracy' to a fault."

Fully agree - Tony (the guy that came with me last night) has a pair of Quad 989's that are famed for their accuracy, if not their musicality. He loves the sound whilst I have to fight the overwhelming desire to kick them whilst listening.

There is something quite surgical about their presentation that I find truely off-putting. You just cant relax with them like you can a Klipsch.

[j-malotky]

One more comment on the LaScalla vs Cornwall discussion.

The Cornwall is a lot more tollerant of of lower quality equipment powering them.

LaScalla's and Khorns with that gigantic K400 Midrange horn are unforgiving when performing with less than perfect equipment or lower quality equipment. Any problems in your Amps, preamps, interconnects, poor quality recordingd, anything AT ALL, shows up load and clear.

This is something to consider when you are planning to upgrade to the larger heritage horns.

JM