Edgar Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 There are some other woofers that I think would do better on the high end.... Edgar....can you plug in these for my curiosity.... http://www.eminence.com/speakers/speaker-detail/?model=Kappa_Pro_12A http://www.eminence.com/speakers/speaker-detail/?model=Delta_12LFA I spec'd out the Delta LFA on my minipunchhorn design as a good option. Would think it would work well in the Jube but little loss low end. K31 in gray, Kappa Pro 12A in black. Quote
Edgar Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 There are some other woofers that I think would do better on the high end.... Edgar....can you plug in these for my curiosity.... http://www.eminence.com/speakers/speaker-detail/?model=Kappa_Pro_12A http://www.eminence.com/speakers/speaker-detail/?model=Delta_12LFA I spec'd out the Delta LFA on my minipunchhorn design as a good option. Would think it would work well in the Jube but little loss low end. K31 in gray, Delta 12LFA in black. Quote
Edgar Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 On the EVM12L the specs aren't that great, how does it test out good. I guess things can look good on paper. The EVM12L is an exceptionally good driver. Originally designed for horn use, it has more recently been applied as a "guitar speaker". With horns, the LF response is largely controlled by the horn itself. It is the HF response where the woofer makes the most difference. In this the EVM12L excels among 12" drivers. Drivers with responses very similar to the EVM12L include the B&C PE31 and PE32. Quote
Marvel Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 On the EVM12L the specs aren't that great, how does it test out good. I guess things can look good on paper. The EVM12L is an exceptionally good driver. Originally designed for horn use, it has more recently been applied as a "guitar speaker". With horns, the LF response is largely controlled by the horn itself. It is the HF response where the woofer makes the most difference. In this the EVM12L excels among 12" drivers. Drivers with responses very similar to the EVM12L include the B&C PE31 and PE32. You are making me wish I hadn't sold the EVs I had. They would probably work great on a mid bass driver to go with the MWM bins recently acquired from JWC for the school where I work. Those are certainly great drivers. Bruce Quote
ClaudeJ1 Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 (edited) K31 in gray, EVM12L in black; no other changes. Now you know why I'm using currently, an EVM 15L in my FH-1's, you should see how THOSE model in my new horns. Here's the EV (black line) vs JBL 2225 (gray line) Edited January 25, 2014 by ClaudeJ1 Quote
jwc Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 (edited) I would have never expected the EVM or the B&C PE drivers to ever play solid down to 40Hz. They look way better in the midbass area. Edgar I hear you say the low end is more the horn....but I would have to hear it to believe it. Something I'll have to try out on future horn builds. With those kinda T/S and the "advertised" freq response of 50Hz or greater for the B&C's and 80Hz or greater for the EVM's.....I looked over them. I didn't think they would give the low end. I'll have to get some of these drivers next time to try. EVM 12L classic SPECIFICATIONS Usable Frequency Response in a Typical Vented 1.3-Cubic-Foot Enclosure (1 watt/1 meter; see Figure 1): 80-5,000 Hz Sound Pressure Level (1 watt/1 meter): 100 dB Long-Term Average Power Handling Capacity (per EIA RS-426-A 1980; see Power Handling section): 300 watts Nominal Impedance: 8 ohms Voice Coil Diameter: 63.5 mm (2.5 in.) Thiele-Small Driver Parameters fs (free-air resonance frequency): 55 Hz QES (electromagnetic Q at fs): 0.245 QMS (mechanical Q at fs): 4.37 QTS (total Q at fs: (Qes Qms) (Q : es + Qms) 0.232 VAS (volume of air having same acoustic compliance as driver suspension): 82.9 liters (2.9 ft3) B&CPE32 Fs 51 Hz Re 6 Ω Qes 0.19 Qms 7.6 Qts 0.18 Vas 101.0 dm3 (3.56 ft3) Nominal power handling1 250 W Continuous power handling2 500 W Sensitivity (1W/1m)3 101.0 dB Frequency range 50 - 4000 Hz Edited January 26, 2014 by jwc Quote
ClaudeJ1 Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 K31 in gray, EVM12L in black; no other changes. Edgar, can you post your Hornresp TXT file for the Jube so I can import it? Thanks Quote
Edgar Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 I would have never expected the EVM or the B&C PE drivers to ever play solid down to 40Hz. They look way better in the midbass area. Edgar I hear you say the low end is more the horn....but I would have to hear it to believe it. Something I'll have to try out on future horn builds. With those kinda T/S and the "advertised" freq response of 50Hz or greater for the B&C's and 80Hz or greater for the EVM's.....I looked over them. I didn't think they would give the low end. The rules are a little different with horn loading. Light cones and strong motors work best. As direct radiators this leads to weak bass response. But in a bass horn, this leads to extended HF response, while the horn itself takes care of the bass. Quote
Edgar Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 Edgar, can you post your Hornresp TXT file for the Jube so I can import it? Thanks I'd be glad to. But right now I'm on a completely different computer that doesn't have access to my Hornresp data. So I'll do that tomorrow morning. Quote
Edgar Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 Here is everything I have for the Hornresp model of the Jubilee. You'll have to rename the file to "Hornresp.dat" and place it in the Data folder associated with Hornresp.exe. I built this file under the latest version of Hornresp (v33.5), so there should be no compatibility problems. Note the similarities in the responses of the EVM12L, PE31, PE32, and 12NDH-3. Hornresp - Corrected Jubilee alternate woofers.txt Quote
Marvel Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 Is the EVM12L the original or the newer model? Bruce Quote
Edgar Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 Is the EVM12L the original or the newer model? Original. Have the parameters changed in the newer models? I haven't kept up. Quote
Bacek Posted June 27, 2015 Posted June 27, 2015 Hello, I'm reserching Jubilee woofer alternatives. Unfortunately shipping K-31E or Crites CW1228 to Europe almost dubles their price.So I'm wondering if there are any other alternatives I can buy localy. I have extracted equations from Klpisch/Delgado JAES article and from what I seepreaty good match should be Kappa PRO 12A. Unfortunately not inexpensive either. Do you have any other proposals not included in my spreadsheet? Quote
PrestonTom Posted June 27, 2015 Posted June 27, 2015 This has been discussed before and at least in the US there were not many good substitutes. There was a Pioneer but it is no longer made. The simulations are useful but I would take them with a grain of salt. I know you folks in Europe get hit with great number of fees, taxes and shipping costs, but the Crites or K-31 woofers may end up being a smarter choice after all. Quote
Chris A Posted June 27, 2015 Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-st305-8-12-series-ii-woofer--295-120 Vas is 164 l (5.79 ft^3) Price is $94.80(US) Edited June 27, 2015 by Chris A Quote
PrestonTom Posted June 27, 2015 Posted June 27, 2015 I am not sure why Chris is recommending that one. Qts is high, Fs is a little high and VAS is quite different. It would not be plug and play into a Jubilee bass bin. Anyhow, are Dayton's easy to get in Europe? Quote
Chris A Posted June 27, 2015 Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) Fs is actually lower than all but one of the other alternatives and the price is 1/4 of that alternative. I look for low Fs since that always seems to be the controlling factor. If you're going to make a chinese copy of the KPT-KHJ-LF bass bin plywood design, then I might agree with your assessment. I know of no one that uses the KPT-KHJ-LF bass bin above about 550 Hz. There's not much reason to do so, and the diffraction from the two horn mouths gets to be a real issue above about 220 Hz. However, Hornresp allows you to optimize based on the available driver. I find the the relative performance of the alternatives in Hornresp is very useful in making decisions. Hornresp doesn't model the intricacies of the bass bin design, only the gross behavior, but something like this will get you much closer to actual performance. Chris Edited June 27, 2015 by Chris A Quote
PrestonTom Posted June 27, 2015 Posted June 27, 2015 Chris, understood. If the OP does substitute woofers with different T/S parameters, they should at least re-do the calculations for throat size (see the Keele paper) and rear chamber volume (see "reactance annulling"). Quote
Bacek Posted June 27, 2015 Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) Dayton it's not wieldy avaliable but I know "local" distributor. Any way sensivity is lower for it than for the other. Not sure why CW1228 seems to be regarded as alternative for K-31. It needs twice of back chamber volume than Jubilee has. STX W.32.500.8.MC is local speaker and it's dirty cheap but sensivity is low. Maybe I'll have to look for some European Klipsch distributors for K-31E. Edited June 27, 2015 by Bacek Quote
Chris A Posted June 27, 2015 Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) We're in violent agreement, I believe. By the way, I'd look at a single mouth bass bin design if you're thinking about using the bass bin much higher than ~220 Hz: about 1/3 wavelength corresponding to the mouth separation distance. Chris Edited June 27, 2015 by Chris A Quote
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