anarchist Posted July 28, 2002 Share Posted July 28, 2002 hello again, first i have to say Forrest actually threw one post in there that was so to the point and reasonable, i thought someone had hijacked his id. ok mdeenan, in your one post you claim those who have the power should use that power to distribute the wealth. that my friend borrows directly from the communist manifesto. it and your following post argue against a class-based society (A-rod vs. firemen) which also is part of the communist manifesto. I won't debate the merits or appeal of idealism but will mention it fails in reality. there is nothing wrong with honest labor and an individual has every right to demand an equitable payment for such labor - it is HIS role to negotiate his salary and not the governments, after all, he is not being forced to work for a crappy salary. this is personal responsibility and self-determination. your references to personal responsibility (must be a pilot to fly) are clearly biased in your examples and attempt to make it a bad thing; you couldn't be further from the mark. in fact, your very argument for government regulation is demanding personal responsibility - if you decide to sell products that are harmful to your fellow humans and cause death, the government holds you responsible. of course government should provide regulations and laws that benefit its citizens and protects them from negligence, enemies, corporations, and other attacks on their lives. this however does not say one thing about government's purpose being to regulate wages or redistribute wealth. the fact the country was founded on no taxation without representation (although some are foolish enough to believe they are represented) hints at the founding fathers and the countries citizens believing in self-determination. there is entirely too much government interference in our lives today and it has little to do with 'protecting' the population. that said, i do believe in some minimum standard being advanced although i believe a market-driven economy will itself find the balance without government interference - it simply may take longer than we wish to wait. my belief, quite simply, is our current tax code and regulations will never provide the distribution you seek. in fact, i think it highly unlikely it can even begin to close the gap. if we are going to continue to let the government tax our income, i advocate a flat tax rate with no exemptions for anybody that provides a floor level consistent with a minimum standard of living. i.e. if the minimum cost for housing, clothes, food, and transportation is $25K a year and you make $25K you pay no taxes. After that limit is reached you pay a flat rate for every dollar above that with no ceiling. all other taxes and methods of screwing the population would be eliminated. this is equitable and in stark contrast to our present system. ------------------ HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere Audio - Heresy, KG4 This message has been edited by crash827 on 07-28-2002 at 01:22 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump2 Posted July 28, 2002 Share Posted July 28, 2002 Well MD like you know the system isn't perfect. But I still don't see any specific solutions from you. Your real solution is of course to elect more demoncrats as are so abudant on your left coast. Also you need to get out of CA more. Think youll find things arent so bad elsewhere. The reason the system works is because it corrects itself. You work to change the entire structure of the Constitution and Capitalism, I'll work to prevent that, and we neutralize each other and the system stays in tact. We need less Gov not more. Money cant buy happiness so let those who want more of it work for it. Demoncrats want to give people money that they dont even want it so more will be dependent on them and the government. The far right is evil like is the far left. Common sense keeps both parties toward the middle. And How about those Coalminers? Times are bad but its still a Great country. Good thing Im in a defensive industry. LOL ------------------ Go Forth and Hump the World Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted July 28, 2002 Share Posted July 28, 2002 hi mdeenan, let me see if i can clarify my point. i was not implying you are communist nor did i intend to imply only communists would propose a similar constuct, i was pointing out that government (if were to function as you appeared to describe it) would be borrowing communist doctrines. i will also point out that the churches also adhere, to a degree, to your axioms with the catholic church being the best example. i agree 100% it is not strictly a political issue (left vs. right) but an ideological issue. of course corporations lobby government to tilt the balance in their favor. it is the most glaring example of the deficiencies in our current system. you will get no disagreement from me on this. i would argue all of your examples show the problem with government interference and more to the point demonstrate that allowing 'power' to control distribution of wealth is a bad idea. the proper aim should be to remove that power so such jackasses can not exert undue control over the individuals in the system. it is indeed a sad commentary that those who risk their lives receive so little in contrast to entertainers. it is indeed sad that the dream is to become a star athlete and earn more than the entire population of the town you came from. that however is how Americans decide to spend their income without thinking of the implications. to think you should regulate the maximum income an individual should receive based on some moral consideration goes against everything 'free' means. not that i believe we are truly 'free' but that is a whole other topic. you damn sure should eliminate ANY and ALL benefits they plan to receive from the government however. i know people who won the lottery (millions) and then want their pensions, social security, and medicare - this is greed, pure and simple. ------------------ HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere Audio - Heresy, KG4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump2 Posted July 28, 2002 Share Posted July 28, 2002 "of course corporations lobby government to tilt the balance in their favor. it is the most glaring example of the deficiencies in our current system. you will get no disagreement from me on this." So do the Unions, Consumer Groups Associations, the CLU .... Extremism will never take control in the US so yoy can preach on either side til you you blue in the face, or some where else. The big dif is Corp and small business, consumers and investors are not backed by law to the extent that Gov is. Wealth is distributed by the law of supply and demand much more than by Big Gov or Big Biz. You can be cynical and say not, but that is an antagonistic lie to say otherwise. MD, you really are badly skewed there on the left coast. That not the way the rest of the country works well except for part of New York. You think the Gov and Big Biz Business has a lot more control than they do. Or you know they dont and youre pushing an agenda. Me think the last one. ------------------ Go Forth and Hump the World Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump2 Posted July 28, 2002 Share Posted July 28, 2002 The best SOL statistic is that the median SOL for the US was far above the Median for the Soviet Union, North Korea, or Cuba. That means statistically capitalism is it dude. If you want to help the poor you have the freedom to do so with YOUR own damn money. Keep your hands off mine Jack! LOL ------------------ Go Forth and Hump the World Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump2 Posted July 28, 2002 Share Posted July 28, 2002 MD, good attempt at spin. But you can't write off the Soviet Union your real posterboy for your little excersise of a Command Economy for Amerika. We know what happened to them. LOL Are you just a moaner and groaner or do you have Any real specific and plausable ideas and solutions for your Command Economy, Nikita? LOL ------------------ Go Forth and Hump the World Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted July 28, 2002 Share Posted July 28, 2002 I see forrest is back and is as, well, you know ------------------ Receiver: Sony STR-DE675 CD player: Sony CDP-CX300 Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U Speakers: JBL HLS-610 Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8 Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted July 28, 2002 Share Posted July 28, 2002 mdeneen: Your segue from the An Rynd quote to your 9/11 scenario is a bit of a stretch (IMHO). I acknowledge that the vast majority of the first rescue workers to respond to the 9/11 emergency were government employees. I certainly believe (I'm not sure about An Rynd) that there is a need for Government to provide necessary services for the common good. The questions to me are twofold: which services are best provided by government and which are best provided by private industry? Which government services are best provided at the federal level and which are best provided at the local level? To me the gist of An Rynd's comment is that individuals have been the primary force behind America's greatness, not big government. Here is an attempt at economics 101: There are Capital Goods and Consumable Goods. Consumable Goods are anything we use that needs to be constantly manufactured or made. This includes most everything you might find in a supermaket; food, personal hygiene supplies, medicine, and the like. A Capital Good is anything that is used to produce Consumable Goods, such as factories or processing plants that produces the food or medicine. In many cases Consumable Goods become Capital Goods, such as automobiles. A factory (a Capital Good) produces cars (Consumable Goods), and consumers buy them, then use them as Capital Goods to drive to work to produce income (Capital Goods) to buy more Consumable Goods. Here is how you figure what kind of society you live in: If private citizens are allowed to own and control both the Capital Goods and Consumable Goods, you live in a Capitalist society. If the Government owns and controls both the Capital Goods and Consumable Goods, you live in a Socialist society. If private citizens are allowed to own the Capital Goods, but the Government controls the production of Consumable Goods, you live in a fascist society. What kind of society are we becoming? "Fascist ethics begin with the acknowledgment that it is not the individual who confers a meaning upon society, but it is, instead, the existence of a human society which determines the human character of the individual. According to Fascism, a true, a great spiritual life cannot take place unless the State has risen to a position of pre-eminence in the world of man. The curtailment of liberty thus becomes justified at once in this need of rising the State to its rightful position". (Mario Palmieri, "The Philosophy of Fascism" 1936) Just my 2¢ This message has been edited by edster00 on 07-29-2002 at 07:07 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted July 28, 2002 Share Posted July 28, 2002 hi mdeenan, others, nice post by the way edster. education. the buzzword of the last two decades and nothing to show for it yet. yet our state governments have instituted state sponsored lotteries all over promising the money raised would be directed straight to education. we should have know this was a big lie - if we actually educated our population there would be less people to purchase lottery tickets. just a thought. this is a difficult one mdeenan. i believe privatized education would provide the best teachers and best education opportunities. there are concerns with such an approach (corruption, profit motive, etc.) and who would pay? i think the government would have to provide regulatory overview, taxes should be paid by all to the government, and the government would enter into contracts with private companies. clearly this would need to be expanded upon to provide certain assurances of quality, equality, and open access to all students but public education run by the government simply sucks and our population grows dumber by the minute. many teachers in the public system are inept and even more have a very low financial incentive to perform well; i would not want the job. further i believe many folks waste our education dollars by attending schools or classes they clearly don't have the intellectual capacity to benefit from. bottom line is education is a government function - the implementation of that function needs serious reworking. we know the system doesn't work now. ------------------ HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere Audio - Heresy, KG4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted July 28, 2002 Share Posted July 28, 2002 Ahhh, never mind. This message has been edited by TBrennan on 07-28-2002 at 11:09 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@silverfox@ Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 Stop this physco babble,and consider who's pulling your strings. I'ts very entertaining to see educated scholars debate the nueances of the higher level of human development and not realising that thus far no one has even attempted to solve any of the issues deign debated. Goverments are made up with people who start out with the backing of selfish people. Mainly your idealistic conviction is projected through the one who is foolish enough to think they can make this change which satisfy your ego.Division have now been created on a phsycological level,only to find that there has already been rules layed down by your predissor and will be adhear to by all new arrival. The founders formed such a system which they inhereted from their predessor's,freedom of choice has always been the cry,freedom from tyrinical rulers,unfair bosses,and what ever else that ails us. society cannot be stagnant thus new weight has to be added on, on the basis of how mutch more are you worth, should production determine this or intelect.Ideas without implimentation is wasted ;effort without order is chaos.what is the real reason behind this topic , Who is pulling your string?is it he who start's or the one who finishes it how free are you in your choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 actually no one pulls my strings. i engage in conversations on politics, religion, race relations, etc. on a regular basis amongst those i find offer insight, provoke thought, and entertain me with their opinions. you living in Miami should understand government corruption real well, the dismal failure of the education system, and the focus on class systems; political discussions comparing Miami to Cuba are bantered about all the time with banana republic frequently tossed-in. if one person thinks, if one person considers his own viewpoints and modifies them, abandons them, or reinforces them, the conversation has not been a waste of time. if that should not occur, it still has been entertaining to those not afraid to engage in it. ------------------ HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere Audio - Heresy, KG4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lne937s Posted July 29, 2002 Author Share Posted July 29, 2002 More to think about- Mdeneen- I don't think you are a communist, however- many of your statements use neo-marxist arguments- whether you realize it or not(you can also be communist but not Marxist). Not all neo-marxists are communists- it's a type of analysis based on the foundation of "historical materialism." In addition, many of the postions of Marx have been taken up by American government- on both sides of the isle. (I really think people should actually read Marx, especially Capital, before they make comments on him). Much of the development of unions in this country has a Marxist or communist origin (sometimes with a Christian justification), in addition to many of the leaders of women's sufferage (look at the politics of Susan B. Anthony- we put a commie on our currency). To everyone else- there are no "laws" of economics. Economics is not called the "dismal science" for nothing. Many Classical Economics principals are rooted in agrarian societies and virtually irrelevant to today. Keynes modified this to adapt to modern- industrial society. However, many of his rules are loosing ground. We are quickly leaving the industrial age behind, and we need new thinking. The Great Depression can be seen as a last stand of agrarian society- creating the need for great adjustments to provide for an industiral society that promoted the needs of the people. We need to make adjustments again, but going back to '20's policies is NOT the answer. Remember when England was an economic powerhouse- they failed to adjust and have suffered from a slow painful decline. If we fail to anticipate the future, we will suffer the same. I also think that many "Conservatives" should read the writings of Fascist leaders in Italy as well as Nazi writings- your oppinions might scare you. The Nazi Propaganda Archive at Calvin College is a great resourse. You may never look at Christian government and running the government like a business in the same way again. Like I have said before- we are entering a new era. Necessities are making up a smaller and smaller percentage of our total expenditures. The family is becoming an economic burdon. Information is gaining value over production. The image of a product often outweighs the substance of it (look at BOSE). These trends will only grow. We need new thinking- Ayn Rand, Conservatives, Liberals, etc. will not help. All of our concepts of economy are based on constructs- even money has no value other than that which we assign to it. Our constructs must change- and this recession is a great time to do it. I want to hear some new ideas- not just the same old crap. I read Nietzsche from time to time and really think he has some great ideas, along with some not so great (reading Nietzsche is very difficult if you do not take your time- learning when he is being sarchastic, the meaning of his intentionally confusing analogies, etc. is very easy for the casual reader to misinterpret- especially in translation. {Nietzsche actually criticizes nationalism and antisemitism} However, I find the insights and concepts in his writing intellectually stimulating). I also read Derrida for interpretive insights and Peter Singer to question my sense of ethics. Anyway- I want to hear new ideas. Larry PS- I don't think the press is necessarily Liberal. In NY- the mainstream papers are definitely pro-business. However, all this is relative- Republicans are pro-choice here. In NY many of the problems are brought into focus- homelessness is in your face, the wealthy are amazingly so, taxes are extreemly high, economic changes hit us hard, etc.- so we have a little different perspective than those who are isolated from it. I personally like to read the NY Times or Wall Street Journal. It amazes me how much better papers are here than in MO. An interesting article in the Times today is on parentless children- 16% of inner city black children growing up without either parent- check it out. Also, criticizing the press for being out to get you is a self fulfilling prophecy- they are out to exploit whatever story they can find and criticizing them just gives them an excuse. Look at the favorable press articles for Dole (who should have learned from Nixon) before he started criticizing the press and after. The same thing also happens with liberal candidates- the first candidate to cry foul will never get favorable press again. People always pay more attention to the points they disagree with more than the ones they agree with- depending on the measure, our press is pretty representative of our opinions- if it wasn't, we wouldn't buy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lne937s Posted July 29, 2002 Author Share Posted July 29, 2002 On the freedom issue Remember, there are two types of freedom- freedom to and freedom from. Virtually everything can be justified using one or the other. "Freedom" to own slaves and "freedom" from slavery. "freedom" to run your business the way you want and "freedom" from corporate tyranny. "Freedom" to say whatever you want and "freedom" from broadcast offensive messages. Freedom of religion and freedom from religion. No matter what we do, it can be seen as freedom. I personally think the role of government is to protect us from others infringing on our rights and to promote the common good. Otherwise- I think the government should stay away from regulating our personal choices that don't infringe on the rights of others. A helmutless motorcycle rider won't make as much of a dent in my car; cigarette smokers won't burn up as much social security, won't need medicaid and medicare to pay for their bills as long, and pay $5+ a pack in taxes that I won't have to. If you aren't spending my money or infringing on my rights- go for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump2 Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 Denteen, what people want is to not be told what they want. You really need to worry about yourself. You are obvious losing it. LOL ------------------ Go Forth and Hump the World Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 hi, mdeenan lets look at two dismal failures of government interference in the market. seatbelts and air bags. the industry was investigating safety measures on their own at the time the government stepped in and demanded something be done "right now". in both cases, industry told the government these early safety features were not ready. they knew lap belts could cause far greater injury than the accident and they knew the same was true of air bags. government, in its zeal to show it was doing something, mandated their use. both caused deaths and required substantial overhaul. i don't advocate government stepping out of education. i suggest their focus and participation in it be completely overhauled. clearly the market isn't as fast to respond when needed (where common good is the catalyst) if profit may be jeopardized. oh, yeah, don't give those government organizations too much credit - the USDA inspectors have been powerless to stop the repackaging of tainted meat by grocery chains. we are aware of the harm but even when exposed, our representatives are so lobbied by the private sector they refuse to give the laws any teeth. the system is ineffective and corrupt...but I prefer to limit its control over our lives rather than expand it. term limits anyone? need to protect ourselves from those too stupid to understand that voting for the same idiot over and over (based on the same old promises) and expecting a different result is insanity. as a sidenote, I think an individual has every right to decide whether or not he wants to wear a helmet, provided they can pay for their own funeral. as someone who raced motorcycles competitively, i think anyone who chooses not to wear one is, well, dumber than a rock. ------------------ HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere Audio - Heresy, KG4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soundthought Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 Hello my fellow Klipsch lovers. This is a little poem I wrote, some ten or so, years ago. I was a senior in H.S. and had an intresting perspective on life. Just a little something different for you all. Crowded Individual I am a man. A man who knows no rules. Why was I born to prewritten laws? Crowded. Are we cattle in lives pen, rounded up for a governmental feast? A feast into our minds and our pockets. Why? Why am I different from the man? The man that runs the controls, the man that pulls the strings. Am I an individual, is the man my god? But, he is no more a man than I. Yet, he tells me what to do. I am crowded. Crowded in an emptiness of life, floating in a political fishbowl. I am a crowded individual. ------------------ You should of heard just what I've seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump2 Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 "To say, "all regulations are bad BECAUSE we want to be FREE" is fairly out of the question to me. " No Denteen instead you say because we have some regulation now we might as well have the GOV regulate most everything in our lives. That just plain insane logic. Not all states have piece of crap GOV and politics like CA. That what you dont get. You left coast looney-birds need a good earthquake to float out past Hawaii. LOL ------------------ Go Forth and Hump the World Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lne937s Posted July 29, 2002 Author Share Posted July 29, 2002 On the helmut issue- people without a helmut are more likely to die. People with a helmut are likely to have neck injuries- leaving them paralyzed on disability for the rest of their lives. The difference in cost is insignificant when you break it down. Look at F.O.R.R. for more information. The whole justification is a veiled attempt for the "protect people from themselves" proponents. The same could be said about airbags, 5mph bumpers, etc. Some people I'm sure would rather not lug around the extra weight- making their cars more fuel efficient and responsive (F=MA). on a lighter note, a comment on the past debate: http://www.uclick.com/client/nyt/tt/2002/07/28/index.html We need more cartoons here. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump2 Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 Looks to me like the Economy is starting to DRIVE the fan. And that will soon blow away the Evil stench of the Rat bastards in our country like MD and C&S. LOL I dont think MD got me. The average American doesnt want to be told by the likes of you and the libbies what they should want or need. Follow that you dupes? MUHAHA ------------------ Go Forth and Hump the World Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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