Should I upgrade?

[tblake10]

Ask yourself: which Klipsch speakers do I eventually want to own? Then save up and buy those speakers.

It's much less costly than doing trade-up after trade-up, and you'll get to having amazing sound sooner than you expect.

And one!

[Scrappydue]

I'd wait for sure. Klipsch has raised their prices too much since Audiovox bought them. The RF-7ii price of $1600/each is crazy. Even more crazy than what the pricing on the RF-83's were (I'm thinking MSRP was $1400/each). If it was me, I wouldn't pay more than $600/each and hold out for the next model before buying the RF-7ii's. 50% off sales also happen regularly on "A" stock if you wait around. I bought my A stock RF setup 50% off.

Used prices on the RF-83's and RF-7's seem to be about $800-$1100/set. I'm willing to bet it would be hard to hear a difference between them and the RF-7ii if there was a way to do an objective test. It's not like there's some radical difference in design philosophy between them, and the RF-7ii will be discontinued this year if you believe the rumors.

The Heritage speakers really are better for movies. I'm young so I never had the chance to hear the heritage line until I bought my La Scala II's from craigslist. When I first started buying speakers, I always thought the heritage folks were crazy as technology in the heritage line is decades old, until I actually listened to my LS II's. An all horn speaker really is the way to go if you want the best possible sound and bang for the buck (e.g. resale value).

the term "in my opinion" REALLY belongs in this statement. Just because YOU think the heritage speakers are better for movies does not mean they are. I dislike when people say that kind of stuff as so many new people scan these forums for info. They may read your quote and think that they have to buy heritage stuff for a great "movie" sound. And that is just not the case. Everyone's ears are different.

[eaux]

... and the RF-7ii will be discontinued this year if you believe the rumors.

Where did you hear this rumor? The RF-7II has been quite successful and selling like hot cakes.

[etc6849]

Yes, of course it's my opinion. Just like it's your opinion that I'm wrong. I've listened to both for hundreds of hours (and actually own both), and an all horn setup with good subs is better.

I'd wait for sure. Klipsch has raised their prices too much since Audiovox bought them. The RF-7ii price of $1600/each is crazy. Even more crazy than what the pricing on the RF-83's were (I'm thinking MSRP was $1400/each). If it was me, I wouldn't pay more than $600/each and hold out for the next model before buying the RF-7ii's. 50% off sales also happen regularly on "A" stock if you wait around. I bought my A stock RF setup 50% off.

Used prices on the RF-83's and RF-7's seem to be about $800-$1100/set. I'm willing to bet it would be hard to hear a difference between them and the RF-7ii if there was a way to do an objective test. It's not like there's some radical difference in design philosophy between them, and the RF-7ii will be discontinued this year if you believe the rumors.

The Heritage speakers really are better for movies. I'm young so I never had the chance to hear the heritage line until I bought my La Scala II's from craigslist. When I first started buying speakers, I always thought the heritage folks were crazy as technology in the heritage line is decades old, until I actually listened to my LS II's. An all horn speaker really is the way to go if you want the best possible sound and bang for the buck (e.g. resale value).

the term "in my opinion" REALLY belongs in this statement. Just because YOU think the heritage speakers are better for movies does not mean they are. I dislike when people say that kind of stuff as so many new people scan these forums for info. They may read your quote and think that they have to buy heritage stuff for a great "movie" sound. And that is just not the case. Everyone's ears are different.

Edited March 7, 2014 by etc6849

[etc6849]

I agree. Maybe RF-7iii in the near future? Amy alluded to it in a post on here.

... and the RF-7ii will be discontinued this year if you believe the rumors.

Where did you hear this rumor? The RF-7II has been quite successful and selling like hot cakes.

[Scrappydue]

i wasn't saying you were wrong at all. i just don't like when people make broad statements like that as i said, new people read these a lot and it can throw them for a loop. i also own both and probably listen to them all much more than any human being should.

[Scrappydue]

... and the RF-7ii will be discontinued this year if you believe the rumors.

Where did you hear this rumor? The RF-7II has been quite successful and selling like hot cakes.

reference stuff seems to run 4 years.its time for new. definitely won't be rf-7iii's

[holtrp]

On paper, the reference gear has a wider range of frequency response. I don't have near enough time with my heritage gear to make a definitive judgement, but I will say in plain two channel stereo listening (albeit in different rooms with different amps) the Khorns (and Heresy for that matter) have a much fuller sound when it comes to mid-range and bass.

If it wasn't such a project to haul them around, I could do some real side-by-each comparisons.

I agree though, saying x speaker is much better than y can be misleading. What kind of amps / source? What sort of room? etc.

[etc6849]

In my defense, my other post suggested he listen to both. Yes, my second post didn't restate this and could have. There is something to be said about a horn loaded woofer and having a larger horn for mid-range. I'm convinced that 7/10 folks who actually listened to them both without bias would pick an all La Scala or similar setup.

[John Chi-town]

INMHO Heritage 3 way sound is the way to go. Either for music or movies. A pair of Cornwall III are more expensive than the Reference Flagship, excluding the Palidium line.

Best regards,

John

[CECAA850]

Reference or heritage. MSRP should also figure in when looking at the overall picture. In that respect, I agree with John.

Speaker size also needs to be considered.

As far as recommendations go, the best thing to do as etc says is to get out there and listen to both and see which one you like. That's the only vote you should cast with your wallet.

[willland]

an all horn setup with good subs is better.

***NOTE*** I referenced this quote because it is a very subjective statement. Not the only subjective comment in this thread I might mention.***NOTE***

I can't believe we are having this argument again. Heritage vs Reference. I think each line has it's great qualities. An RF-7 or 7II setup is very hard to beat for home theater in your average size family room or dedicated theater. As well as an all horn Heritage HT setup. If I had an opinion, I would say that the all horn Heritage(Khorns, Belles, La Scalas) setup would have the edge for music in most conditions and the potential for better HT in larger rooms.

Let me also state that I do not have either an RF-7 HT setup or a Heritage HT setup. But I have heard(many times) an RF-7 HT. Based on physics and many opinions on this forum, I have come to the conclusion that an all horn Heritage HT(with proper sources and amplification) has got to sound incredible.

By the way, we all on occasion make biased and subjective comments on this forum.

Bill

[Rhetor]

I have come to the conclusion that an all horn Heritage HT(with proper sources and amplification) has got to sound incredible.

Bill

It does, listening to an all Heritage HT setup now (11 channels).

But, like you and many others, I was never disappointed in my Reference based HT setup. Loved it too. And would not be disappointed or hesitate in returning to a Reference HT setup, especially with RF7s. It is apples and oranges . . . personal preference, update skills, space, and wallet.

My all heritage HT was quite a bit more difficult to dial in, having bought all of my speakers on CL and all of them needing some tweaks and repairs and learning how to do those. Much simpler and faster with a great result going Reference.

But I do think my all Heritage HT took me, my opinion, to a new level of enjoyment.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Rhetor

[etc6849]

That's the conclusion I came to. It took me a while to move on from my reference setup, which sounded great. The reference line didn't have the dynamics of an all horn speaker (which no direct radiator will have without gobs of amplification). The imaging was also not as good with the RF-83's versus the LS II's.

As a disclaimer to the OP, I bought La Scala II's from craigslist. As Rhetor says, the originals may require some modifications, recapping, etc. The necessary mods are due to age, others are things like installing bracing since the sides vibrate a little on the LS. I didn't have to go through this mods process as I paid more for the updated heritage stuff.

Indeed, it is about physics. There's a lot of reasons an all horn speaker sounds "better," and it's not just a matter of my opinion, but of course any post here is opinionated since you asked for our opinion A lot comes down to opinion as some people don't want real sounding speakers, and I can understand that.

However, things like imaging, distortion and efficiency do matter. Even more so than frequency response alone which is something the RF-7ii's has going for it, but really this issue goes away once you add a few nice subs to a heritage all horn setup.

There are many technical papers such as this one from a post the other day in the technical forum: http://www.readresearch.co.uk/loudspeaker_papers/klipsch_modulation_distortion_article_1.pdf

It explains how FM modulation and it's impacts on a direct radiator woofer. It's worth reading.

Also, there's also the dope from hope series which are all interesting to read (more like a blog post in today's terms): https://www.klipsch.com/Education/dope-from-hope

[John Chi-town]

My belief is the following... BTW I own forte II. so I do not have an all horn system. To me a 3 way design is as important if not more so than all horns. There’s a totally effortless feeling to vocals that come from a mid-range driver operating nowhere near its limits in either frequency response or output level.

Best regards,

John

[Heritage_Head]

I have a rf7ii reference ht downstairs and cornwall heresy heritage ht upstairs. I think at this point we are splitting hairs a bit. They both have the klipsch sound and both are very dynamic. Now if i had my old rf82 set up downstairs then it would be heritage all the way. But the 7s hold up pretty good. Heritage has an awesome value and i will admit if i went back in time i probably would have saved money buying used heritage.

[derrickdj1]

Theorectically speaking, a two way speaker has several sound advantages over a 3 way design. First, the design and xo's are simpler. Multiple drivers can cause problems with imaging, phasing and time alignment in the speaker. Passive xo's in a 3 way speaker can lead to more driver overlap.

Now, a two way design is less efficient in manay cases and there are only two drivers to reproduce the entire frequency range. There will be more distortion but, is it audible?

There are pro's and con's of all the designs and how well controled the negative factors and how well done the positive factors in the speaker design will determine how great a speaker you have or don't have. For me, what is important is what is coming out of a particular speaker and not the design of horn, 2 way, 3/4 way.

Edited March 10, 2014 by derrickdj1

[etc6849]

It's definitely not splitting hairs with my LS II's versus a full RF-83 system. The LS II's are more dynamic and have better imaging. I can't speak for the sound Cornwalls make as I don't own them like you and Scrappy. The sound of my LS II's absolutely amazes me, to a level my RF-83 system couldn't.

The Cornwalls hold their resale value very well, but don't have as big of a mid-range horn and do not have a horn loaded woofer (this is a big difference to some and can be good or bad depending on your personal taste). They're more attractive and much lighter than the LS II's I own (by 80 lbs).

It is true that a horn loaded woofer will be more accurate (read the link I posted previously), but it will not go as low as the Cornwall's so you may not like LS II's without a sub. It's also true you can hear a difference (as pointed out in the paper by PWK), too. Now, whether you like the difference and accuracy is up to you.

I have a rf7ii reference ht downstairs and cornwall heresy heritage ht upstairs. I think at this point we are splitting hairs a bit. They both have the klipsch sound and both are very dynamic. Now if i had my old rf82 set up downstairs then it would be heritage all the way. But the 7s hold up pretty good. Heritage has an awesome value and i will admit if i went back in time i probably would have saved money buying used heritage.

[Heritage_Head]

It's definitely not splitting hairs with my LS II's versus a full RF-83 system. The LS II's are more dynamic and have better imaging. I can't speak for the sound Cornwalls make as I don't own them like you and Scrappy. The sound of my LS II's absolutely amazes me, to a level my RF-83 system couldn't.

The Cornwalls hold their resale value very well, but don't have as big of a mid-range horn and do not have a horn loaded woofer (this is a big difference to some and can be good or bad depending on your personal taste). They're more attractive and much lighter than the LS II's I own (by 80 lbs).

It is true that a horn loaded woofer will be more accurate (read the link I posted previously), but it will not go as low as the Cornwall's so you may not like LS II's without a sub. It's also true you can hear a difference (as pointed out in the paper by PWK), too. Now, whether you like the difference and accuracy is up to you.

I have a rf7ii reference ht downstairs and cornwall heresy heritage ht upstairs. I think at this point we are splitting hairs a bit. They both have the klipsch sound and both are very dynamic. Now if i had my old rf82 set up downstairs then it would be heritage all the way. But the 7s hold up pretty good. Heritage has an awesome value and i will admit if i went back in time i probably would have saved money buying used heritage.

Well they weigh 80lb more and retail $3500 more

Comparing LSii speakers to rf83s is comparing $7,000 speakers vs $2800 speakers. So your right its not be splitting hairs. My comparison is with speakers in a price range that is much closer. Also i did add that if i did it again i would have went heritage because i feel you can get more for your money. (imo)

If i go out and buy a Corvette I'm probably not going to compare it to my Malabo in the garage as a reference. The reference line is a much lower price point and imo needs to be compared to that level or something close. Price has to always be a factor when comparing A vs B.

Don't get me wrong I'm a believer (in heritage). I mean just a few weeks ago i was set to buy some khorns and have no place to put them. But i didn't care because I'm so hooked on the heritage sound and want more .

Im not saying you shouldn't compare them. I'm just saying price needs to be part of the comparison to be fair.

Edited March 10, 2014 by reference_head

[etc6849]

Since I bought used, each pair of LS II's cost was only $400 more than the pair of the RF-83's (which were also used since they were floor models). Not that cost is the only factor though. Almost always, it is appropriate to figure in resale value, depreciation, etc in order to find the true cost of ownership.

For something with very little depreciation, I typically take the cost and subtract the resale value. When you do this, it appears my use of the LS II's is FREE!?! -What a deal Ok, maybe not as I'm losing the utility of the money I spent on them; money that I could have used to earn interest or invest. However, the good thing is inflation will be taken care of as the LS II used price should rise close to the inflation rate.

The same cannot be said about the reference stuff unfortunately, so I'm not looking forward to selling them. Of course, in order to think like this and get away with it, you need spare money that can just sit in your living room for many years not earning any return. This is what I call disposable income and it takes a while to build up as most of us don't make much out of college. Thus, sticking to a budget like you mention is HIGHLY important.

Comparing LSii speakers to rf83s is comparing $7,000 speakers vs $2800 speakers. So your right its not be splitting hairs. My comparison is with speakers in a price range that is much closer. Also i did add that if i did it again i would have went heritage because i feel you can get more for your money. (imo)