Rudy81 Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 (edited) If you have Khorns up front, the issue is likely that the Audyssey mic cannot 'hear' the tweeters in their full output. I ran into that very issue when I had Khorns up front. I spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out why Audyssey boosted my high's so much. After talking with lots of folks and asking Audyssey for help, they suggested I raise the mic height. The height of the khorn tweeters was well above my sitting height....where I was locating the mic. Once I raised the mic near the top hat level, the problem with boosted highs was solved. Set the mic at top hat height and run the minimum set of sweeps. See if that solves your problem. Edited April 30, 2014 by Rudy81 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeker Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Audyssey is mallarky Just a new ploy to sell more gear. I have it on my current surround sound receivers but dont use it. If you like it cheers for you. Every year ya gotta buy something new or manufauctureres cant put food on the table. I'm only gonna worry about my table sorry manufactuers Wasn't Claude running it when you raved about his 1/4 pies? Why did you edit out your comments? You do know that when a post is quoted an email of the original is sent right? I will just say once talking to him i made a tiny adjustment in my opinion. I still prefer a simpler setup. Yes I may end up using a stack just like Claudes someday. I am in touch with several of the the finest speaker builders in the world. Claude even with his modest approach and ability to provide knowledge seems to prefer keeping to himself and I respect that very much so and find him to be at huge value to audio and its future. Nobody is going to open a box and properly setup audessey in even 1 month unless using it for a good amount of time beforehand for some amount of time, indeed properly. I know i can and have numerous times, set up audessey properly. Its great that everybody finds it useful. It may lead to fine audio when used properly. I can only leave it at that... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 (edited) I have to totally agree that it is highly unlikely that you can successfully run Audyssey properly right out of the box. There is a lot of know-how and technique to getting good, useful readings. I know it shouldn't be that way, but it is. I have spent a ton of time and energy with Audyssey and still learn stuff all the time. I have found it to be a highly complex piece of software that requires effort to get the most of it. Case is point was my long struggle to get it to work with Khorns. Until I raised the mic to top hat level, I could not get it to work. That was contrary to the guidance that the mic be set at ear height. The majority of speakers most folks have at home are nowhere near that tall. So, the 'general' guidance doesn't address this type of problem. Also, you can run into problems with high sensitivity speakers and consumer amps where you can't adjust the gain. With Khorns or other highly efficient speakers, you might find your speakers set at -12, Audysseys lower limit, with no idea of where it really needs to be to match your other speakers. The Audyssey setup guide on the AVSforum is a great source of information and techniques. The Audyssey thread on that forum is a mile long and growing every day with problems like these filling page after page. If you search that thread, you will find my struggles with Khorns back in 2009. However, once you figure out what works for your system, you might find you won't listen without it. Just depends on if you want to invest the time and energy to get the results. I ended up taking it a step further and invested in the Audyssey Pro gear and Pro license for my Integra pre/pro. Edited April 30, 2014 by Rudy81 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 (edited) However, once you figure out what works for your system, you might find you won't listen without it. Just depends on if you want to invest the time and energy to get the results. I ended up taking it a step further and invested in the Audyssey Pro gear and Pro license for my Integra pre/pro. I won't listen to my system without Audyssey's automatic mode calibration ON, except to show how much worse it sounds in comparison. Time domain correction for the ROOM is the key, since 90% of the sound your hear from 10-12 feet away is from the reverberant field of the room. The only thing I override is the volume settings on my Heresy surrounds. Any manipulation of manual EQ override by ear (seriously?), or with instruments completely kills the time domain corrections that Audyssey works so hard to give you. Just remember that a bad implementation of a good device doesn't make the device itself bad (tons or science and research went into Audyssey by some brilliant people). Audyssey is very sensitive and requires great care and experience to use. I have XT and will be upgrading to XT-32 in a week or so. The biggest change I have made to my system of late is to lower the highpass filter on my Quarter Pies by 20 Hz., which allowed for greater bass impact and detail with the DTS-10's turned OFF. I also did an extensive room analysis for the bass anomalies in the room and moved my listening position way closer and change the angle of the K402's for a perfect equilateral triangle. Then I let Audyssey do it's thing for the new setup with the DTS-10's turned on. This resulted in a lower crossover point in the Quarter Pies by 10 Hz., the Subs were set to 80 Hz.instead of 120 lower for LFE lowpass. The net result? Greater clarity in the highs and midrange. Greater clarity and separation on string bass and kick drums, greater impact overall for both movies AND music. My closer couch position also make the HDTV seem larger by perpective, LOL. Had extended listening session last night and I'm happier than ever. Hoping all the extra data points of the XT32 do an even better job of taming the room because each time I upgrade Audyssey, everything improves regardless of all the different horns I have had in different rooms, from small to large. Since I don't have rigid tweeters like Khorns, my tweeters are aimed down directly at my ears, as are the centers of the K-402's. Everything converges in the sweet spot. The imaging is rock center solid for vocals (that sound like they are coming out of the TV), and a total "wall of sound" for all the instruments, micro detail galore. The improvements are the same for music or movies, but I admit to using 2.1 more than 7.1, which is also Automatic detection by my Onkyo. I like things as simple as possible. I have set up Yamaha and Sony before and Audyssey is, by far, the best room correction of all. This is just the opinion of a happy, experienced USER. I brought back some fantastic 96Khz/24 bit original master live studio recordings on Blue Ray from AIX that are stunning in surround or 2.1, with or without Video. Heard the demos on a million dollar's worth of German Equipment (not for sale in the US) and mine sounds better. What's not to like about 135 db dynamic range with no compression of the natural sound. Hope this catches on. Edited April 30, 2014 by ClaudeJ1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 The learning curves with any autocalibration method is steep. I don't use Audyssey but, I found myself still learning things with MCACC for almost a year. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coleman Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Audyssey for movies and manual EQ for music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeker Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 (edited) However, once you figure out what works for your system, you might find you won't listen without it. Just depends on if you want to invest the time and energy to get the results. I ended up taking it a step further and invested in the Audyssey Pro gear and Pro license for my Integra pre/pro. I won't listen to my system without Audyssey's automatic mode calibration ON, except to show how much worse it sounds in comparison. Time domain correction for the ROOM is the key, since 90% of the sound your hear from 10-12 feet away is from the reverberant field of the room. The only thing I override is the volume settings on my Heresy surrounds. Any manipulation of manual EQ override by ear (seriously?), or with instruments completely kills the time domain corrections that Audyssey works so hard to give you. Just remember that a bad implementation of a good device doesn't make the device itself bad (tons or science and research went into Audyssey by some brilliant people). Audyssey is very sensitive and requires great care and experience to use. I have XT and will be upgrading to XT-32 in a week or so. The biggest change I have made to my system of late is to lower the highpass filter on my Quarter Pies by 20 Hz., which allowed for greater bass impact and detail with the DTS-10's turned OFF. I also did an extensive room analysis for the bass anomalies in the room and moved my listening position way closer and change the angle of the K402's for a perfect equilateral triangle. Then I let Audyssey do it's thing for the new setup with the DTS-10's turned on. This resulted in a lower crossover point in the Quarter Pies by 10 Hz., the Subs were set to 80 Hz.instead of 120 lower for LFE lowpass. The net result? Greater clarity in the highs and midrange. Greater clarity and separation on string bass and kick drums, greater impact overall for both movies AND music. My closer couch position also make the HDTV seem larger by perpective, LOL. Had extended listening session last night and I'm happier than ever. Hoping all the extra data points of the XT32 do an even better job of taming the room because each time I upgrade Audyssey, everything improves regardless of all the different horns I have had in different rooms, from small to large. Since I don't have rigid tweeters like Khorns, my tweeters are aimed down directly at my ears, as are the centers of the K-402's. Everything converges in the sweet spot. The imaging is rock center solid for vocals (that sound like they are coming out of the TV), and a total "wall of sound" for all the instruments, micro detail galore. The improvements are the same for music or movies, but I admit to using 2.1 more than 7.1, which is also Automatic detection by my Onkyo. I like things as simple as possible. I have set up Yamaha and Sony before and Audyssey is, by far, the best room correction of all. This is just the opinion of a happy, experienced USER. I brought back some fantastic 96Khz/24 bit original master live studio recordings on Blue Ray from AIX that are stunning in surround or 2.1, with or without Video. Heard the demos on a million dollar's worth of German Equipment (not for sale in the US) and mine sounds better. What's not to like about 135 db dynamic range with no compression of the natural sound. Hope this catches on. Thank you Claude for posting here. Much appreciated indeed. There is a Time delay thread you would be able to simplify for an average audiophile if you could as well find the time at your leisure to post a break-down for a clean understanding there as well. Forum member duder1982 started the thread. It would as well be most appreciated if you would take a moment of your time to help out there as well. I will edit and in a moment if you read this at some time I will post the link once i find it and ad to this post in an edit...the link. Once again...Thank You for your time Claude. Link after edit following below. Cheers https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/149554-how-to-figure-how-much-delay-is-needed/ Edited April 30, 2014 by beeker 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhetor Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Audyssey proved outstanding with my 7.1 Reference setup. But when I moved to an 11 channel Heritage setup . . . Ran Audyssey over and over ad naseum. But finally went to an SPL meter to achieve sonic bliss. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Room is 20' wide and 16' deep, and too much furniture. Its certainly not a proper theater or sound room. Also it has a Dovetail 8' ceiling and carpeted floor. What Im hearing is just a boosted top end sound with just Audyssey running. Adding the Dynamic EQ option just boosts bass and treble even more. With K's up front and LaScala rears I hear everything its doing, even as bad as my ears are. I have run it and re -run it with different seating positions and it makes no difference. Im wondering if the sweeps are trying to get the K-77's to pull way past 17khz where they are pretty much done. If so, this may be why its trying to boost them so much and giving them a harsh sound. Its really noticeable with a good recording, its just shrilled all the details out. I had the same effect occurring with my Jubilees. I used the little plug-in microphone supplied with the AVP in several positions and heights, integrating across the positions that were valid for listening, either seated or standing. I never got it to work properly and my base-level version of Audyssey didn't allow me to see the actual settings that it was dialing in so that I could understand or adjust them. Rudy's version of Audyssey (more $) apparently allows more visualization and control. I found, however, that I just didn't need Audyssey due to the other equipment/software that I had on hand If you have Khorns up front, the issue is likely that the Audyssey mic cannot 'hear' the tweeters in their full output. I ran into that very issue when I had Khorns up front. I spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out why Audyssey boosted my high's so much. After talking with lots of folks and asking Audyssey for help, they suggested I raise the mic height. The height of the Khorn tweeters was well above my sitting height....where I was locating the mic. Once I raised the mic near the top hat level, the problem with boosted highs was solved. Set the mic at top hat height and run the minimum set of sweeps. See if that solves your problem. Max, you've got little to lose by trying this, but this time moving the microphone around to much different positions. Getting on-axis with the Khorn tweeters/midrange horns is likely going to be a requirement, and this will also require that you move your microphone position forward from your listening position until it meets the 45 degree intersection of the Khorns on-axis lines, but making sure that this position is not close to the center of the room or near a modal point (1/3, 1/4, etc.) of the room's dimensions in all three axes. I'd also try moving as much furniture back out of the way as possible since you will get complicated near-field reflections off the harder surfaces of the various pieces, including and especially leather-covered chairs and couches and coffee tables with hard top surface (like glass). I'd also cover up any exposed windows or large glass-covered pictures that reflect sound. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 beeker, just note that duder's thread on time delay is a question of time delay using an active crossover to align individual drivers for each speaker, not a time delay between speakers! Big difference. Perhaps ClaudeJ1 is well versed in that area as well, but wanted to clarify the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 The OP is 95% music. I think the question is how well it works with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 The OP is 95% music. I think the question is how well it works with that. IMHO, if the system is being used in two channel mode only with no subs then there is perhaps diminishing returns using Audyssey if you get the speakers relatively flat in FR using other means such as REW + active digital crossover or a DEQ2496 with microphone. This is especially true (IMHO) if the room isn't relatively dead acoustically like a typical for-purpose HT room. But in 5.1 or greater, Audyssey becomes more useful. Chris 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Interesting conversation on Audyssey. My understanding is that Audyssey's strength is in assisting to 'fix' room issues, regardless of how many channels you plan on using. In my room, the 2 channel difference with vs. without Audyssey is very noticeable. The sound seems fuller, with better mid range, with Audyssey in my setup. Having played around with many speakers and various setups, Audyssey has always given me better overall sound. The only time that was not the case was when I had Khorns and placed the mic at ear height. That produced an uncomfortable boost in tweeter output. Mic position for tall speakers like the khorn required mic placement higher than sitting ear height. Of course, a lot of this has to do with the sound you are accustomed to in your particular listening area. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Favog Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 I have a couple of Pioneer Elite receivers in a couple of rooms with MCACC and wish to god I had it on my main livingroom system. Even after it was calibrated in the Pioneer rooms I still did a couple of minor tweeks (slightly more bass). To get a matching unit in the livingroom to replace the graphic EQ that's in there it would cost over $4k; McIntosh MEN220. Don't get me wrong, the DBX 1231 is no slouch, but what I heard in the Pioneer rooms had so much synergy and cohesion. There was more bass out of those RB61's than I thought was possible and the KLF-20's made the helicopter on The Wall sound like it was right outside landing (there's a medical chopper that lands near our house so I do have a referrence to go by ). I'm still drooling over what my McIntosh system would sound like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 I think if you like a flat sound it would be good or even great for 2ch music. My taste is a lot of boom a dip in the midrange (house sound basically). I can see how it would be good for some peoples taste. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 I think if you like a flat sound it would be good or even great for 2ch music. My taste is a lot of boom a dip in the midrange (house sound basically). I can see how it would be good for some peoples taste. Totally flat is not my cup of tea either. I go back in with my Ashly XO and boost the 20Hz-200Hz band by 2.5dB. Interestingly, Audyssey normally puts a dip in the midrange, and that has to do with anomalies near the XO range with standard speakers. I do not use that midrange compensation since my Oris runs from 200Hz-20kHz, so no XO in the mid range. Basically, I customize a 'house curve' for my listening room just as you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 I don't currently have a avr with it. But the few I have used and did set ups on did not allow me to change the eq after set up was done. Unless I turned it off and went to a manual set up. Is this the same on the newer better ones? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 AFAIK, on an AVR you cannot go back and change the EQ settings. I'm sure Audyssey would consider that to defeat the purpose. Since I use active crossovers on my mains, center and LFE subs, I can go into the XO and put in whatever changes I wish after Audyssey has done its thing. I have a preset in my XOs that sets all drivers to flat EQ, just leaving the timing and level adjustments. I then run Audyssey Pro. The Pro version does allow me to go in the program and make some modifications to EQ, but it is limited to +/- 3dB. So, I use my XO EQ ability to make a custom house curve. This is not normally available to folks using stock speakers with passive crossovers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted April 30, 2014 Author Share Posted April 30, 2014 (edited) Same thing with my Denon. You either take what Audyssey gives you or you lose it by going in to manual EQ mode. Like mentioned ealier, you can get the Audyssey Pro and have some room for adjustments, but Im in the dark and don't know anything about it other than what I read a year or so on it. When I first bought my 4311, many people were complaining about the harshness it added on another forum. And some cried foul about flawed mics. After a while I figured it was just killing the cleanness on the amp side adding distortion similar to messing with an EQ or sending the source through it. I don't need or want any color added to my sound, but to boost things to get a flat response I guess I have no choice. If I raise my mic to the height of my K's then Im wondering how my much shorter LaScalas will be boosted on the top end due to their much lower profile. I messed around with Aud last night listening to DTS master HD, LPCM and even DSD on a SACD with Aud and without. At lower levels its not bad and wakes up things a bit, but it still just makes things so wet that you cant hear the delicates on lossless recordings. Now a really bad 128K file it shines up just fine, but I just cant get a very mild change that a really good recording needs. BTW, thanks for all the great info guys. Edited April 30, 2014 by Max2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Favog Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 I guess that's where MCACC is different. I was able to make changes after it did it's thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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