Super Heresy 1 (Baby Cornwalls Mod.)

[ishwash]

21 hours ago, Treyphan said:

For clarifies sake, I’m going to explain the exact config of my Super Heresy 1.5’s. IMHO, if you have 1.5’s this is what should be done. 

Move tried virtually every possible config. This sounds best, both via measurements and my ear holes.

 

 

The recommended tweeter IS stunning, and one day I must do it.

 

Okay, now for a bit of mod degradation: Until that day when I upgrade to the Treyphan's lovely tweeter setup, I will go with my K77's or my already existing CT125's which fit the hole. Let's see, in accordance with the Heresy 1 SH mod degradation process, either should be boosted 3db I believe, right Claude?

 

Sorry, but It was bound to happen.

[ClaudeJ1]

5 hours ago, ishwash said:

 

The recommended tweeter IS stunning, and one day I must do it.

 

Okay, now for a bit of mod degradation: Until that day when I upgrade to the Treyphan's lovely tweeter setup, I will go with my K77's or my already existing CT125's which fit the hole. Let's see, in accordance with the Heresy 1 SH mod degradation process, either should be boosted 3db I believe, right Claude?

 

Sorry, but It was bound to happen.

I honestly don't know what you are trying to say or ask here. If you look at the comparison curves I posted, it shows a slightly elevated midrange in the H 1.5's output vs. the original curves from the H 1 mod from 4 years ago on the very first page. The test happened in different homes over 4 years apart and from 1 meter vs. 8 feet, so it's apples and oranges. I do recall the CT-125's looking very good in my second pair, but I never published those curves from 4 years ago, nor do I still have them.

 

I did not strictly do a midrange to midrange comparison between my present H1's vs. Treyphan's H 1.5's, maybe I should have, so I would know exactly what the difference is. I can only surmise that they are about 1 1/2 db apart by the full band curves, and the peaks and dips are in different places, but that is all.

 

Treyphan was interested in justifying the expense for a tweeter and wanted to see why he thought something was missing in his listening tests. All I can say is he really likes the results and has said no to a friend who offered to buy them at a substantial profit, even BEFORE the tweeter upgrade. The rolloff on the old K77's pretty much tell the story, along with the end to end response tilt. All of this yielded the EASIEST modification "package" yet, which gives the Heresy 1.5 guys a pretty darn good and easy recipe to follow.

 

[Treyphan]

9 hours ago, ishwash said:

 

The recommended tweeter IS stunning, and one day I must do it.

 

Okay, now for a bit of mod degradation: Until that day when I upgrade to the Treyphan's lovely tweeter setup, I will go with my K77's or my already existing CT125's which fit the hole. Let's see, in accordance with the Heresy 1 SH mod degradation process, either should be boosted 3db I believe, right Claude?

 

Sorry, but It was bound to happen.

Hey @ishwash, please don’t take this as rude. I’m just quite confused and had a beer or two...so I’m a bit loose.

but what are you trying to say dude? “Degradation Process”, I’m not sure what Anyone said gets degraded?

However, from what I can summize from your quoted “comment”. Is that your wondering about which of the tweeters you have available to you, that you should choose to use. I mean I think after seeing the performance numbers of the K77, you would use the CT-125’s? Right? I mean if you have them.

Also, the horn lens and b&c 120 tweeter are “drop in”. I mean to quote one of my favorite movies “like a GLOVE!!!” 

Seriously, @Dave A has a hell of a product. 

Im not easily impressed, just how I am. I’m usually let down by the quality of modern things. Not these Horns, I’m sure I’m near annoying about them by now, but Wow! So nice. 

Anyway, so you could go that or a similar route.

Regarding your questions about “either” being “boosted” 3db. I think what you’re asking is should you jump the taps on the T2A for the Mid and Tweet like @ClaudeJ1‘s original recipe. Seeing as he used a set of Heresy I.

My opinion is “sure”, try it. It’s easy enough to do, and switch back if your handy with a soldering iron. Just remember to double up on the caps to 4uf if you do, and back down to 2 uf if you find it too “hot”.

Only you can decide what sounds best. And for the price of 2 extra 2uf Dayton Poly Film caps,$4, you can’t go wrong. Having extra caps is worth it anyway. 

If you find the neither setting is just right. You could try the Crites autoformer that has 1db steps. Idk though, I don’t think you’ll need it.

If I were you I would follow Claude’s recipe for the original SH to a T. Using your CT-125 tweets. Unless you wanna spring for the B&C. Which I now HIGHLY recommend and will use on any further builds. Even if you need to wait a bit and save for them.

Good Luck!

[ClaudeJ1]

1 hour ago, Treyphan said:

If I were you I would follow Claude’s recipe for the original SH to a T. Using your CT-125 tweets. Unless you wanna spring for the B&C. Which I now HIGHLY recommend and will use on any further builds. Even if you need to wait a bit and save for them.

Good Luck!

I concur with all of it, but especially the last sentence. When I did the original Super Heresy's I was going by the T2A autoformer incremental steps that Klipsch had done between the Heresy I and Cornwall I, which was 3 db and a good place to start. It coincidentally worked out pretty well,  since the same K55 driver that was used in ALL of PWK's original Heritage products.  But not for the Heresy 1.5 w (Before the Jim Hunter redesigned Heresy II with new tweeter came out) which used a Klipsch made mid driver, that, again, by coincidence, along with the new DaveA/B&C DE-120 tweeter was a little hot (by about 1.5 db), so leaving the E-2 network alone with just a cap refresh turned out to fortuitous for those who believe in the "industry standard" curve tilt being up 3 db in the extreme bass and down about 3 db in the extreme treble (see the Classic Fletcher Munson Curves).

 

 I still need to go to Treyphan's house to hear the results, and to apply my own auditory relevance to the curves I plotted (although I do trust his opinion). It all makes good sense to me, but again I can't account for anyone's room or personal taste in Speaker VOICING, which is something even the Klipsch Engineers have to contend with in all their products when tweaking crossovers. It's the main reason there's listening tests to verify the target curves. No 2 ears are alike. But I do listen to various opinions on the subject of HOW they sound, nonetheless and take into account an aggregate of all the comments, moving forward.

[ishwash]

"Hey @ishwash, please don’t take this as rude. I’m just quite confused and had a beer or two...so I’m a bit loose.

but what are you trying to say dude?"

 

Ran out of K55's after doing three Super Heresy 1's. Have a fourth pair of Heresy 1 boxes, a pair of K53's and a pair of Eminence Delta Pro 12A's installed in the 4th set of boxes. Began paying attention to Super Heresy 1.5 portion of this thread because it fits my situation. I also have a set of E-2 crossovers on the way. I don't want to spend any more on this, and I am sure your 120 tweeters are great but in my boxes they would be hidden behind grills.

 

I also have a pair of CT125 tweeters. When the E-2's get here, I will try it first without changing E-2 tap points, but I anticipate that the CT125's will need to be increased by 3db just as was recommended for Super Heresy 1 mods, but I do not anticipate having to make the K53 louder since it is already considered to be hotter than K55's. I guess I was passing this through you two and anticipating that I might hear "different is not the same". I know this won't be the same as yours Treyphan, but I think it will be pretty darn good.

 

Sorry for my dumb-*** post.

 

[ClaudeJ1]

25 minutes ago, ishwash said:

"Hey @ishwash, please don’t take this as rude. I’m just quite confused and had a beer or two...so I’m a bit loose.

but what are you trying to say dude?"

 

Ran out of K55's after doing three Super Heresy 1's. Have a fourth pair of Heresy 1 boxes, a pair of K53's and a pair of Eminence Delta Pro 12A's installed in the 4th set of boxes. Began paying attention to Super Heresy 1.5 portion of this thread because it fits my situation. I also have a set of E-2 crossovers on the way. I don't want to spend any more on this, and I am sure your 120 tweeters are great but in my boxes they would be hidden behind grills.

 

I also have a pair of CT125 tweeters. When the E-2's get here, I will try it first without changing E-2 tap points, but I anticipate that the CT125's will need to be increased by 3db just as was recommended for Super Heresy 1 mods, but I do not anticipate having to make the K53 louder since it is already considered to be hotter than K55's. I guess I was passing this through you two and anticipating that I might hear "different is not the same". I know this won't be the same as yours Treyphan, but I think it will be pretty darn good.

 

Sorry for my dumb-*** post.

 

No such thing as a dumb*** post, just a less clear one. Now I want to add that I found the CT-125 in my second pair to be about 1 db less hot and just as smooth so I think you will have much success in using it. Go for it. all the best to ya.

 

[ishwash]

Thanks, Claude! You too, Treyphan!

[JohnJ]

The CT-125 are excellent and I can't stop thinking that these little speakers have a mid and high end dynamics that mimic those astounding (to me) LaScalas I went and listened to a couple of months ago. The Forte IIIs image better but these little Super Heresy just sound big. I've got a slight harshness to the midrange I'm hearing, thinking that further adjusting the speaker location might alleviate this.

[ClaudeJ1]

1 hour ago, JohnJ said:

The CT-125 are excellent and I can't stop thinking that these little speakers have a mid and high end dynamics that mimic those astounding (to me) LaScalas I went and listened to a couple of months ago. The Forte IIIs image better but these little Super Heresy just sound big. I've got a slight harshness to the midrange I'm hearing, thinking that further adjusting the speaker location might alleviate this.

If it's a Super Heresy 1.0, you might want to try adding a 20 uF cap in parallel with the woofer. Just an idea.

[JohnJ]

45 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

If it's a Super Heresy 1.0, you might want to try adding a 20 uF cap in parallel with the woofer. Just an idea.

So you think it might be the high end of the Eminence Cast K42 before the dual phase K55V right off the bat?

Mine are from 78 not sure if 1 or 1.5

I got right in front of them and without the right recording I have not been able to discern which of the two it actually is!

[ClaudeJ1]

19 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

So you think it might be the high end of the Eminence Cast K42 before the dual phase K55V right off the bat?

Mine are from 78 not sure if 1 or 1.5

I got right in front of them and without the right recording I have not been able to discern which of the two it actually is!

If they are 1978, there's an S in the serial number. It's a K55 with the push terminals in the mid and metal horn.....therefore a Heresy 1 converted to Super Heresy. Unless there was a mid driver upgrade, which, is not the same as a Heresy 1, now is it? Any subtle difference is not the same as my original, eh? "Different is not the same" is my famous saying. The devil is in the details.

[JohnJ]

Not sure about the mid push terminal did not open them yet.

There is an S in the matching serials.

K55V dual phase with K700 horns that mimic the big Klipsch presence in these small packages.

 

I'd quote myself but... NO not the same, these are Super Heresy.

[ClaudeJ1]

12 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

Not sure about the mid push terminal did not open them yet.

There is an S in the matching serials.

K55V dual phase with K700 horns that mimic the big Klipsch presence in these small packages.

 

I'd quote myself but... NO not the same, these are Super Heresy.

Klipsch did not have the dual phase plug in that model year. But the single works just fine.

[JohnJ]

Yep one of your buddies at this thread constructed these recently. I was a willing participant in purchasing!

[Frzninvt]

The K53K/K-701 would not fit in the HIP cabinet the lense is too big and thick to clear the woofer baffle.  I also found out that Klipsch changed the cabinet in '84 as the K-701/K-53K would not line up properly in my 1980 cabinets (positioning of the mid and tweeter are different).  I had to rob the K-700/K-55V's out of my '80 Heresy's to use in the HIP's so I thought I'd use the K53K/K-701 with E-2 networks but they won't fit.  Anyone want to trade a pair of post 1977 K-700 (thin lense) with K-55V's for a nice pair of K-53'/K-701's?

[ishwash]

Isn't it a reasonably good possibility that Treyphan's tweeter...the B&C DE120 with the neato aluminum billet-source horn is a bit free-er of distortion than other tweeter options?

 

We are pretty familiar with the CT125 and somewhat familiar with the CT120 which uses the B&C DE120 but will not fit the K77 hole in the motor board, but how do you determine distortion, only way I have is with my ears, and they play tricks on me.

 

Trephan's is also mounted with the horn protruding through the motor board, equal to through-mount mounting, isn't that considered a step toward distortion reduction?

 

It seems logical to me that Treyphan mount his K53 through the motor board as well. I think there is room to do that. You could mount the Delta Pro woofer through the motor board, but that wouldn't necessarily be an improvement and might interfere with the grill. I wouldn't think through-mount for the woofer would necessarily be an improvement since this is being done as bass reflex, but Lord knows I ain't no expert with that.

 

Can you imagine how classy Treyphan's 1.5's would look if Dave were to machine aluminum trim pieces to place around the K53 and the Delta pro openings and then the speakers be run without grills!

 

Back to distortion subject:  I hesitate to say this because of lack of knowledge because the K55/K700 has been used successfully in so many Klipsch classic speakers, but to me the K55 match of driver to the K700 horn looks sort of sucky and possibly is a potential distortion-producer in the throat area of the horn. The inside diameter of the exit from the driver is way larger than the throat of the horn, and that darn gasket...have you ever unscrewed a K55 from its horn and not seen that the gasket hole is even smaller than the K700 throat? Can't someone make a horn that doesn't neck-down past the end of the K55 driver, and design a better-sized gasket so I don't have to make mine out of old innertubes? Then if you mounted those in the Heresy1 and 1.5 through-mount you would be the best you could be...notwithstanding the impact of Claude's new woofer!...

 

 

 

 

[ClaudeJ1]

What DaveA's tweeter lens does, besides being a perfect fit, is to avoid any diffractions that occur when the high frequency waves bounce off the 3/4 inch deep walls of the front Heresy Panel. The K77 was designed to use diffraction but Dave's horn lens, coupled with the driver phase plug of the B&C DE-120 driver is not, which is probably what make it so smooth in the curves. Whatever the precise reason is, our understanding of it, it's the output that counts and it's pretty darn good.

 

Minimizing the path differences between the mid and woofer is way more important than any diffractions issues, perceived or real. The Super Heresy is within the bounds of the 1/4 wave rule for phase coherence from a physical alignment perspective, so I don't mess with it.

[Treyphan]

All I can say, is if the Mid looked as cool as the Tweeter, well wow. Not sure I could handle that much cool! Lol

 

I will say, I don’t think I’m gonna mess with the current formula much. Perhaps there are more benefits somewhere to be had. However, I think I’ve come to a “these rock” point. I’m not sure any more would be worth the cost. 

 

I did have quite the scare this morning when one of my Mc240’s threw a Telefunken 12AX7 tube, causing the bias to run away, and a RCA 6L6 Blackplate to start glowing like a toaster!! Fortunately I was watching like a hawk as they’d just been turned on. I was able to shut the amp down within seconds, popped a new Tele AX7 in and I was off into Music land again.

 

could’ve been a lot worse, the sound was not one we like to hear. Fortunately the SH’s were spared any injury. My rig is singing again, and I’m out a rare tube. Coulda been worse....that’s for sure.

 

Im still enjoying these speakers a lot. Running with all controls absolutely flat, the sound is ful all the way through. Someone mentioned a big sound earlier....couldn’t agree more...though my imaging is fantastic. Unreal infact. 

 

[JohnJ]

@Treyphan My S H do image better than my IIs did, the Forte IIIs just do that very well. The CT125s and the K55Vs sound bigger definitely! The K42s in mine do look pretty old (the backsides). Thinking about those 3012 HO woofers.

[ishwash]

19 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Minimizing the path differences between the mid and woofer is way more important than any diffractions issues, perceived or real. The Super Heresy is within the bounds of the 1/4 wave rule for phase coherence from a physical alignment perspective, so I don't mess with it.

Not sure what you said there, but believe you may be saying fixing fit problems in the transition area of the K55 to the K700 by altering the K700 could lead to a violation of the 1/4 wave rule and therefore would not be possible to do?

 

Being an engineer (although a bit old and decrepit...smile) and understanding somewhat the differences between laminar and turbulent flow makes this fit area look shabby. Know we are talking sound here and not fluid flow, but I can imagine this mismatch at exit of driver and entrance to the horn not to be good for the ears.

 

Well, need to get this old fart ready for church...later...