dtr20 Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Hi, I am new to the forum. My father got me into Klipsch when I was a kid and he bought his KG3.5 speakers. He then gave them to me when he upgraded to KLF10s. Well me and my father have been on a Klipsch frenzy and we have both been searching ebay and craigslist regularly for Klipsch speakers as of late. He bought a pair of KG.5s and a pair of KG4.5s. I bought a pair of Klipsch Belle's from someone. I have been busy cleaning up the wood, trying to restore the color. We hooked them up to my Harmon/Kardon AVR247 receiver which I believe is 50 watts per channel. The speakers sounded like a good speaker, but didn't WOW us at all. We hooked it up to my father's Onkyo TX-NR717 which I believe is 110 watts per channel and we still were not Wowed at all. I have upgraded the crossovers to a pair from Bob Crites and still nothing great. In the mean time, I bought a pair of KLF10s and a pair of KLF20s from some craigslist ads which sound great. I am looking for advice about what to do to make the speakers sing like I have read that they can. I would love to use these in my existing setup, home theater or just 2 channel. Are we just not getting enough wattage to them? I would be willing to save up some money (just spent a lot in speakers in the last 2 months) for a separate 2 channel amp for the Belles. My problem is I just don't want to spend more money on this "theory" of a great sounding speaker. I have never heard Belles before. I bought these and they didn't sound great, so I got a decent deal on them thinking I could make it better. Any help would be appreciated on this, thanks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willland Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Dtr20, Welcome to the forum. I bought a pair of Klipsch Belle's from someone. We hooked them up to my Harmon/Kardon AVR247 receiver which I believe is 50 watts per channel. The speakers sounded like a good speaker, but didn't WOW us at all. We hooked it up to my father's Onkyo TX-NR717 which I believe is 110 watts per channel and we still were not Wowed at all. I have upgraded the crossovers to a pair from Bob Crites and still nothing great. Even though I have never owned them, my experience with Belles has never been short of spectacular. Incredible was probably the last adjective I used to describe the sound. I will let the LaScala/Belles guys chime in and help you make those babies sing the way you expect them to. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhetor Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Welcome to the forum, dtr20 . . . The beauty of the Belles is that they are both eye and sound candy. I have two pair of Belles. I originally had them hooked up for testing on an old Pioneer SX-9000 receiver and they were amazing. Now using them in two different HT setups. Do not run out and buy a mega watt power amp. The Belles are extremely efficient and require very little wattage to drive. If they are not wowing you with the new Crites crossovers, it is time to start looking at the tweeter, the mids, and the woofers to ensure they are working. Settle in for some great coming advice. Jus to going to take some time and learning. When we buy pre-owned, sometimes there is more than one thing to sort out. The Belles are the sisters to La Scalas. I had to sort out a tweeter issue on my first La Scalas. An easy replacement courtesy of Bob Crites parts. I recapped my first crossovers myself in those La Scalas and have been learning on here every since. This is a great community/forum. Use search (for a Belles and La Scala repair) and ask questions. Help will be on the way. Again, welcome to the forum and stick around. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 I own a pair of Belles with refreshed AA crossovers (Crites kits). They are incredible at low input levels.....I have driven my Belles with a 5 watt Chinese tube amp....So, having said that, there are a bunch of questions to be asked... XX- Before getting to the list below...are you sure all of the drivers are working properly, and the speaker wiring is correct? 1. What are your listening space dimensions and properties? (Carpet, flooring, furniture, wall construction, ceiling construction, any acoustic treatment) 2. Where do you have the Belles situated in reference to the rear walls, side walls? 3. What are your listening parameters? (How far apart are the Belles, how far are you from the speakers?) 4. What kind of music are you testing them with? 5. Using any kind of room correction? 6. Are they properly configured through your processor? (small, large, etc?) Have you tried test tones through them? Probably lots more questions to come, but this might be a good start to help you. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricktate Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Sounds like the AVRs are set to small for mains or there is something wrong or has been changed in the speaker. Pics of the workings such as drivers,crossover hook ups etc might help. I get wow with 24 watt 1970s receiver you should get it with those. Have you confirmed all drivers are working? Rick 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhetor Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 (edited) Also, you cannot expect chest pounding bass out of the Belles. They have good bass, but were designed to only go down to 54hz. In two channel with Belles or La Scalas, I am not a 2 channel purist . . . I always go 2.1 on go with a sub for the lows . . . The Belles shine with the mids and highs. The other speakers you mention in your first post are capable of lower bass: KLF 20s of down to 34hz, KlF10s go down to 32hz, the KG3.5s play down to 36hz, and KG4.5 go down to 36hz. Make sure you are running your Belles set to "Large" on your AVR on a 2 channel setup without a sub to experience their full range. If you are comparing those speakers to your Belles and playing low bass heavy music, expecting the Belles to bang out the same low bass notes, that could be the source of your displeasure. Add in a sub in a 2.1 configuration with your Belles and see if that makes them more sonically pleasing. I know it does for me, but I like bass heavy music with the incredible mid and high clarity of the Belles. +1 on Jimjimbo's checklist above. Edited October 2, 2014 by Rhetor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Rhetor has it right, especially the part where he agrees with me... You may not be "wowed" because you're not getting that chest thump bass out of the Belles, and, I agree. When I want that sweet bass without a sub, I go to my Cornwalls or, for serious rock, my KG 5.5's. When I'm listening to some acoustic, or jazz xuch as Yellowjackets or Fourplay, or female vocal like Anita Baker, there aren't many better than the Belles, IMHO....Please let us know your thoughts and how you move forward..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 (edited) Sounds like the AVRs are set to small for mains. This could well be it! If you are using Belles as main speakers in a 2 channel system with no sub, the AVR or pre/pro MUST be set for LARGE. The Belles should sound clean, clear and effortless, and very dynamic. The bass should be good down to 50 to 55 Hz (depending on their position in the room), and roll-off below that. IMO Belles as main 2 ch speakers sound the best with each firmly pushed into a corner, with some absorbing material on the walls extending about 3 feet out from the speakers to minimize midrange and treble reflections (but not behind the speakers -- the rear corners should touch both walls, or be about 1/16th of an inch out from them). They should be towed in toward the listener so that a person in the main listening position can look straight down the throat of the tweeters. The Belle is not designed to be out in the room. As I said, it should work well in a corner, or at least along a wall. Edited October 2, 2014 by Garyrc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dtr20 Posted October 2, 2014 Author Share Posted October 2, 2014 We had them temporarily setup in my living room, so they were not properly setup in the corners, probably away from the wall about 2-3 feet. I have hard wood floors, sheetrock walls and ceiling. I don't have any acoustic treatments in the room. All of the drivers were definitely working, not sure if they were properly working, but sound IS coming from all three parts. I am not expecting a ton of bass from these, I use an old Cambridge Soundworks PSW1 subwoofer. The speakers put out a low frequency that sounded out of a sub, but was lacking in higher frequencies that should still come out of the 15" woofer. It sounds like there are some frequencies or an octave or something missing from the speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 We had them temporarily setup in my living room, so they were not properly setup in the corners, probably away from the wall about 2-3 feet. I have hard wood floors, sheetrock walls and ceiling. I don't have any acoustic treatments in the room. All of the drivers were definitely working, not sure if they were properly working, but sound IS coming from all three parts. I am not expecting a ton of bass from these, I use an old Cambridge Soundworks PSW1 subwoofer. The speakers put out a low frequency that sounded out of a sub, but was lacking in higher frequencies that should still come out of the 15" woofer. It sounds like there are some frequencies or an octave or something missing from the speakers. At what frequency are you crossing over to the sub? The orthodox view is that when you are using the sub, the Belles should be set on "small" (unlike when you're not, in which case the AVR or pre-pro feeding the Belles need to set on "large"). The reason for using the "small" setting when also using a sub is to avoid phase interference or cancellation in the bass. Try both; there are placement & room based exceptions to this doctrine. THX, Audyssey and others recommend starting with a 80 Hz crossover to the sub. I have sometimes used 60 Hz with Belles, but I wouldn't go lower than that. Is the sub loud enough (sensitive enough woofer(s) and powerful enough built in amplifier) to keep up with the Belles -- some aren't, and can't be set high enough. Use a frequency sweep or test tone disk that goes starts at about 25 Hz in the bass. Sit near the Belles so you can tell whether the bass is coming out of them at your selected crossover (e.g., 60 or 80 Hz), and continues on up. To save your tweeters, do not play the higher frequencies very loud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
absolve2525 Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 (edited) As you know, KLF 10 are just plain great speakers! I have K-horns and enjoy the KLF10 as well. The KLF10 dig deep with plenty of punch. Don't get me wrong, the Belle are classics but won't have the low bass that you're used to. Perhaps hook up those KLF with an active crossover and use them as stereo subwoofers with the Belles? That would kick hard! Edited October 3, 2014 by absolve2525 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffcb Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 (edited) I got some '74 vintage Belles recently, and was a little underwhelmed at first. But the crossovers were shot, so I replaced them with ALK Universals. They sounded much better, even the bass had better definition. But a tweeter went open circuit, so, inspired by the improvement, I have ordered a Fastrac Belle midrange horn, and will use DE10 tweeters on a Contrac T horn. A 50W/ch tube amp will run them, with a 300W sub. Watch this space... Edited October 4, 2014 by geoffcb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhetor Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Interesting . . . Many of us would have simply ordered Bob Crites excellent replacement tweeter and have been done with it for a while. Interesting to see how your order your Fastrac and De10s work out. Oh, and congrats on the acquisition of Belles . . . I love mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffcb Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Thanks for the info. I considered fixing the K77, but on Bob's site he said he was having problems with replacement diaphragms. I'll keep the old speakers anyhow, in case the situation improves. Geoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dtr20 Posted October 7, 2014 Author Share Posted October 7, 2014 I had my subwoofer crossed-over at 80Hz, and I had the Belles crossover at 60Hz I think. I changed the setting for 80Hz on all of my speakers now, with the sub at 80Hz as well. I am running KLF20s for my fronts, KLF10s for my sides, some small Polk Audio for rears and a Polk Audio center. The Belles are still in the basement getting a make over. I used rejuvenating oil on them, now I just need to wax them, but last time I waxed them, it didn't work out too well, so I need help, so it may be awhile. Thanks for your suggestions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Thanks for the info. I considered fixing the K77, but on Bob's site he said he was having problems with replacement diaphragms. I'll keep the old speakers anyhow, in case the situation improves. Geoff fyi I think that's an old post. Best to call or email Crites to find out for sure. they answer very quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boxx Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Good advise here..... Welcome to the forum.... Visit often, post often..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Steven1963 Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 The speakers put out a low frequency that sounded out of a sub, but was lacking in higher frequencies that should still come out of the 15" woofer. It sounds like there are some frequencies or an octave or something missing from the speakers. You may find that once you properly position the speakers (preferably in a carpeted room) that this missing octave returns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dtr20 Posted October 7, 2014 Author Share Posted October 7, 2014 You may find that once you properly position the speakers (preferably in a carpeted room) that this missing octave returns. Well, they will never be in a carpeted room in this house since my entire first floor is hard wood. Do you think it will make a difference if I put the speakers on a carpeted mat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Doubt it. You need area rugs/upholstered furniture to damp reflections and or other room treatments Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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