muel Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Here is an example of SACD that was an improvement over the CD (not a hybrid disk... I got this SACD by accident from a used record store where they had it priced the same as the regular CDs.) This isn't really saying much with a DR of 7 but it is still better! SACD foobar2000 1.3.1 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1log date: 2014-10-09 21:34:13 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Analyzed: Five for Fighting / America Town [sACD]-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR Peak RMS Duration Track--------------------------------------------------------------------------------DR6 -6.38 dB -15.64 dB 4:10 01-Easy TonightDR6 -6.52 dB -14.88 dB 3:46 02-Bloody Mary (A Note On Apathy)DR6 -6.59 dB -16.83 dB 3:45 03-Superman (It's Not Easy)DR7 -6.27 dB -15.09 dB 3:52 04-America TownDR6 -6.51 dB -14.71 dB 4:02 05-Something About YouDR9 -6.06 dB -18.12 dB 3:53 06-JainyDR7 -6.05 dB -16.22 dB 3:04 07-Michael JordanDR7 -6.43 dB -15.48 dB 3:53 08-Out Of LoveDR9 -6.56 dB -19.48 dB 3:00 09-The Last Great AmericanDR7 -6.46 dB -15.96 dB 3:41 10-Love SongDR7 -6.50 dB -16.94 dB 2:50 11-Boat ParadeDR7 -6.05 dB -17.04 dB 5:31 12-Alright-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Number of tracks: 12Official DR value: DR7 Samplerate: 2822400 Hz / PCM Samplerate: 44100 HzChannels: 2Bits per sample: 24Bitrate: 5645 kbpsCodec: DSD64================================================================================ CD: foobar2000 1.3.1 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1log date: 2014-10-09 21:34:41 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Analyzed: Five for Fighting / America Town-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR Peak RMS Duration Track--------------------------------------------------------------------------------DR6 -1.02 dB -9.84 dB 4:09 01-Easy TonightDR6 -1.02 dB -9.14 dB 3:47 02-Bloody Mary (A Note on Apathy)DR8 0.00 dB -11.25 dB 3:45 03-Superman (It's Not Easy)DR7 -1.00 dB -9.35 dB 3:52 04-America TownDR6 -1.02 dB -8.97 dB 4:02 05-Something About YouDR9 -0.31 dB -12.38 dB 3:53 06-JainyDR7 -0.30 dB -10.63 dB 3:05 07-Michael JordanDR7 -1.00 dB -9.73 dB 3:54 08-Out of LoveDR9 -1.02 dB -13.74 dB 3:00 09-The Last Great AmericanDR6 -1.02 dB -10.22 dB 3:42 10-Love SongDR7 -0.93 dB -11.19 dB 2:50 11-Boat ParadeDR6 -0.31 dB -11.37 dB 5:39 12-Alright-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Number of tracks: 12Official DR value: DR7 Samplerate: 44100 HzChannels: 2Bits per sample: 16Bitrate: 791 kbpsCodec: FLAC================================================================================ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Trying to predict where the "mass" tipping point of consumer purchase dollars needed to buy your 'product' at the price point to maximize 'revenue growth' in some realistic future model to offset your expenses to keep afloat all the while trying to reinvent your product is not easy, especially in the restaurant business. My point was having the ability to fall down and pick yourself up and wipe yourself off is huge for a 'Sony' or 'GM'. No doubt! I imagine they are not very nimble Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 (edited) reference_head, on 09 Oct 2014 - 9:44 PM, said: Imo the dire straits sacd is worlds better than the cd. I can agree somewhat. Not that the SACD of Brothers in Arms is not fantastic, but the earlier pressings of the CD are great recordings in their own right.The original studio work was done on a Sony DASH recorder, which really just shows how nice a job they did on the engineering and mastering. According to the wiki on the album, one of the first to use the Sony 24 tracks. Brothers in Arms was one of the first albums to be recorded on a Sony 24-track digital tape machine. The decision to move to digital recording came from Knopfler's constant striving for better sound quality. "One of the things that I totally respected about him," Dorfsman observed, "was his interest in technology as a means of improving his music. He was always willing to spend on high-quality equipment." I'm not sure of the benefit of going to SACD for it. Bruce All of his stuff has great sound. His solo stuff is even better (sound) imo. Brother and arms on sacd 5.1 is amazing work. I have not ran it in the 2ch sacd. So I'm not comparing that. But I go back to my first post and say most people don't care and thats why its failed imo. Sacd could be light years better and still be right where its at. To many people need to get paid to just sell them to a tiny group like some of us. Adding to this. As an example I have talked sacd up to pretty much anyone I know who likes music. Do you know how many of those people went out and bought one? Zero! Not one person. And this is my point. Even after being told how great it was by someone they look up to (as far as audio and video go). They still could care less. That tells me most people don't care. I make sacd sound like the next best thing to them and still no one is interested. I tell them a good movie to watch and they go buy it. I tell them about a new band thats great and they will go buy it. I tell them a great deal on gear and sometimes they will go buy it. Because these are things they actually care about. Sacds downfall has nothing to do with sony or how they sound. Its in the same boat records are in. A tiny few really like it but most don't care. Edited October 11, 2014 by reference_head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 (edited) Bad can be achieved in any medium. It tells you nothing about the format and I really don't know why it is discussed. SACD is a medium. It's potential sound quality is pretty much at the known limits of human discernment. That doesn't mean you can't store crap on it. If there is a point here, it's more proof you can't fix crap. The DSD format can deliver 100% pure crap in a way that ensure it's heard in all it completely horrifying disgust via SACD or any other medium. Imperfect sound forever. Don't blame the medium, blame the person who wrote the message. Dave Edited October 11, 2014 by Mallette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 It certainly shows they can screw up a good recording... whatever the medium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Amen, muel. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 I could not agree more... after several great purchases of SACD's a DVD-A's, I got this limited fidelity YES lp... going for the one while it's most certainly much much better than my cd, it still sounds extremely compressed during high energy sections of the recording. a lot of the elements sound pushed back and muddled... but low energy movements sparkle and shine. perhaps my ears have just changed over the years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 (edited) it still sounds extremely compressed during high energy sections of the recording. a lot of the elements sound pushed back and muddled... but low energy movements sparkle and shine. perhaps my ears have just changed over the years. Yes and no. Yesterday I was sitting in my office hard at work. I heard something that caught my attention. I got out the door and in the clear just in time to see a B-29 bomber heading off to the north. I excitedly entered the hall were my staff resides and starting with a 29 year old programmer whose ears should be at peak said "Did you hear that aircraft??" No...heard nothing. Went down the hall and not a soul said they even heard it go over much less thought it special. I am 65 and my hearing is naturally deteriorated. But, like you and others here, it is highly trained. Use it or lose it. What you point out on that recording is precisely the confusion between format and engineering that many here suffer from. My analytical abilities separate issues from format and those of engineering in ways computers or instruments will not be able to do for years, maybe decades. I am not special, either. There are plenty of others here with the learned ability to do so, though many aren't even aware of it. As I started life as an audio engineer I had to learn discrimination between format, equipment, and operator error as part of my job, so I had a lot of others to discuss what we were hearing and why. Most audiophiles don't have that so they often really don't have a way to verify what they are hearing. Trust your ears, my friend. They are marvelous when combined with the most powerful computer on the planet...the one housed between your ears. Also...I'd point out the "hybrid" label tells you of the short sighted stupidity of the record companies. In a reasonable world you'd rip that DSD and make what would be a near perfect transcode to Redbook or whatever with degradation consistent only with the abilities of the target format. As it is, it wastes space and you really don't know where it slept last. Dave Edited October 11, 2014 by Mallette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 ^ wow... that's such a great post! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tromprof Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 I am 65 and my hearing is naturally deteriorated. But, like you and others here, it is highly trained. Use it or lose it. What you point out on that recording is precisely the confusion between format and engineering that many here suffer from. My analytical abilities separate issues from format and those of engineering in ways computers or instruments will not be able to do for years, maybe decades. I am not special, either. There are plenty of others here with the learned ability to do so, though many aren't even aware of it. As I started life as an audio engineer I had to learn discrimination between format, equipment, and operator error as part of my job, so I had a lot of others to discuss what we were hearing and why. Most audiophiles don't have that so they often really don't have a way to verify what they are hearing. Trust your ears, my friend. They are marvelous when combined with the most powerful computer on the planet...the one housed between your ears. Dave Well said. I teach a lot of students, all of whom are a lot younger and haven't been sitting a little too close to the tympani for the last 25 years. They all have better hearing than I do. What they lack is the ability to appreciate and discern the details that separate a student from competent professional. Once you train a student how to listen to themselves it is amazing how quickly they progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 (edited) this learning to "listen" direction we have come to is akin to being able to de-program many listeners (most of whom have grown up listening and being programed to a westernized scale) to appreciate non-westernized music and micro tonality. it take a certain amount of time for one to become accustomed to and appreciate a non standard... standard. Edited October 11, 2014 by Schu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 (edited) One place to start -- Norah Jones' father (http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/57536): And a microtonal composer: Edited October 11, 2014 by Chris A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 this learning to "listen" direction we have come to is akin to being able to de-program many listeners (most of whom have grown up listening and being programed to a westernized scale) to appreciate non-westernized music and micro tonality. For sure. I have a considerable collection of Chinese classical music. Some of it predates polyphony in the west by a thousand years. Erhu and pipa are particular favorites of mine. Thai folk orchestras are wonderful, especially when heard at night in the northern jungles and with the soft hiss of coleman lanterns reminds one of analog tape! Balinese Gamelan orchestras are marvelously beautiful both to look at and listen to. There is no bad music when composed by masters and played by artists. Only untrained ears and closed minds. I've often thought that perhaps the only thing that may save us from being demolished for a galactic bypass may be it there is an alien audiophile on board the constructor ship who hears the sublime works we have produced along with nuclear war and beheading each other over religion. It might be just enough to give us the benefit of the doubt and get off with a warning. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 I hear a B52 bomber over head with clear skies, yet no bomber??... What gives. F@CK you SACD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Those B52's are LOUD. I had one go over my house a few years back... I can't imagine a whole squadron of them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 I hear a B52 bomber over head with clear skies, yet no bomber??... Try rolling one first... Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Just don't try rolling a B52... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjFIB1L3BPU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 (edited) As a former Rockwell International employee, I suggest B-1 on full after burners for your ear crushing listening enjoyment.That being said, there is probably nothing like hearing a hundred or more B-17 with their radials flying over your head. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I know this is off topic, but since we're talking high resolution digital audio, I would like to make a suggestion to anyone that might like either of these two Albums. I did a listening test today where I listened to the CD, the Vinyl and the Blu Ray audio of each of these two recordings since I just received the Blu Ray recordings this last week. I must say that I am truly blown away by the musicality, clarity and presentation of Blu Ray audio, particularly on these two recordings, especially in relation to the Analog Vinyl Versions... Definitely a good buy if anyone has interest. Edited October 12, 2014 by Schu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Just don't try rolling a B52... Zeppelins are much better. Big, fat, easy to light and keep burning. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 That being said, there is probably nothing like hearing a hundred or more B-17 with their radials flying over your head. That would be something, but I think only 12 remain and one is pretty awesome. One near us at Galveston. If you know the completely unique sound of a classic Harley engine, you'll recognize at B-17. I've told many...when you hear what sounds like 20 or so Harley's in the distance it's either the Hell's Angels or a B-17. They sound exactly alike and no other 4 engine bomber ever sounded like them. The B-29 that also resides nearby flew over my workplace Friday at maybe 2000 feet. Nice! Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.