HDBRbuilder Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 I have noticed many times on this BBS that members have opinions on differing quality of different component drivers used in Klipsch products over the years...I have decided to post this excerpt from PAUL WILBUR KLIPSCH, The Life...The Legend, by Maureen Barrett and Michael Klementovich in which PWK is quoted as saying the following about some of the driver changes over the years: "...We went through a succession of different bass drivers over the years. An early driver was a Magnavox. Then we went to Jensen and then to Stephens. Poor old Bob Stephens, he was always one step behind the big guys. He finally sold out, and the successor company lost its quality control. Then we went with Electro-voice. That driver was the 15WK and the original was 16 ohm. I wanted an 8 ohm which in my horn(the k-horn) came out to 16 ohm. After EV, came Chicago Telephone Service(CTS of Paducah). Their boss man went to a neighboring town and started producing the Eminence drivers. We also went through a succession of mid-range drivers. At first we used a few Western Electric (WE-713) drivers, but they had quit making them. We tried the University SAHF. It didn't go out as far as I wanted (frequency range), but we made up with the tweeter. Then they lost their quality control. Luckily, Atlas came up with a replacement driver. I could take it apart and modify it by reducing the clearance between the loading plug and diaphragm to boost the response to 6k Hz. Then they switched to a ferrite from an Alnico magnet and had problems with the rear air chamber. Then Electro-Voice rescued me. As far as the tweeter is concerned, the Electro-Voice T-35 became the standard tweeter from 1958 to 1989. Before the Electro-Voice, we used the University 4401, a sad tweeter, but there wasn't anything significantly better. Electro-Voice's old T-35 had a peak at 7,500 Hz. When they brought out the T-35 with the Avedon loading plug, it would go out to 16k Hz. I prefer the phenolic diaphragms because of their availability; however, we did try other diaphragms. We used the piezo tweeter. It is a good tweeter as long as you keep the power level within its capacity. The minute you overload it, the response narrows and the power handling capability decreases. We also tried a tweeter with a beryllium diaphragm. When it hit the loading plug, it shattered into dust. We also changed the throat size(k-horn)of the bass horn at several points along the way. In my first paper, I described a horn with a rubber throat. The effective throat size varied with frequency. When I went to a 15-inch driver, I thought I didn't need it. But we found that there was a sag in the response at 400 Hz. The response was better for out present woofer with a throat of 6 X 13 inches." Maybe this will clear up some of the speculation as to why PWK changed things over the years. Many say that he just "went cheaper." That definitely has to be at least some portion of the reason...it was a BUSINESS, after all!! But one must also give serious consideration to the fact that commonality usage of parts throughout his line of the time allowed him to get better QUANTITY prices on drivers used. Remember, Klipsch was NOT a speaker giant company in those days like JBL, etc....and any cost cut he could swing kept him more able to keep the product cost down. But also keep in mind his afore-mentioned reasons for some of these changes in drivers...quality control will ALWAYS be an issue when a speaker company outsources for its drivers and is not directly linked to the quality-control of their production!! ------------------ I can now receive private messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 I think also needed to say here is that drivers over the years have, I am sure, have gotten better too. Even today, look at the new and improved Heritage line announced. Better components will be inside the box in crossovers and drivers. I am sure when it is finally here, will make the old designs SING with clearity we all will salivate on too. Yes, as in any business, you want a low cost, but also an acceptable solution to give you a nice profit. It is a shame some of these drivers today in 2002 are not in fact made by Klipsch themselves or someone seeking an opportunity to make some good $$. They could set up shop here in the USA or produce them abroad if that is what it takes. Work close with Klipsch so that the engineering staff and whoever this would be could work semi side by side in some agreement. With the abundance of Speaker companies making parts today, I am still shocked that Klipsch had so many problems locating a good source. Rest assured, after meeting more and more employees from Klipsch here in Indy, the idea that "Quality" is our first issue to bring you the best sounding speakers today, is still true. (Paul can relax that current owners will NOT ruin this company.) I have enjoyed the book too. Really gave me an insiders view of how Paul seemed to be on a day to day basis. And makes me even more proud to have a lot of Klipsch speakers in my house too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 New is not always better... indeed, a lot of times, it is worse. I still prefer many of the older versions of the vintage Klipsch; this also pertains to many other equipment manufacturers where so-called "improvements" brought LESS instead of more. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 Mobile I agree on some points yes. But you never know. Sometimes the new stuff is pretty cool too. Good points though. I am all still impressed with the Heritage line up too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triode Pete Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 Yes, drivers can improve (like anything else) over time; but more than ever, it's based on ECONOMICS. Tannoy made some of the best dual concentric drivers (10", 12" 15") in the 1950's & 1960's. Sonically superior to their stuff in 2002. Their manufacturing detail and associated costs (including alnico) make it COST PROHIBITIVE to do today! Look at the 1950's Jensen triaxial and the old EPRI (Western Electric) & JBL drivers. Heavy, huge, very expensive to produce with cheap labor back then! Today, if you want the best (such as alnico & QC), you have to pay big $$$. Look at the Alon speakers & TAD (Japan) with Alnico magnets. Big bucks! Paul Klipsch made some very impressive sounding speakers with high quality control & frugal parts. It was a great synergy (the sum of the parts & TLC). It's pretty amazing! My $0.02, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 Indy---Very little improvement in drivers since the 1930s and 40s, this is mature technology. About the only argueable improvement in compression drivers are the berilium diaphragms used by TAD (reverse engineered JBLs by Bart Locanthi an ex-JBL and Altec guy hired by Pioneer) and now JBL. Use of titianium was a slight sonic step backwards to get better power handling. Oh yeah, Altec's "tangerine" phase plug gave better highs even though used on ferrite drivers (which sound as good as Alnicos anyway, Im listening to ferrite Altecs now while Alnico JBLs and Altecs sit in my "museum", they're very pretty). The Altec 515 family dating from the mid 1940s is still the best woofer ever made. Of course this matters little in a Klipsch discussion as they never used the best stuff anyway. By the way that PWK driver discussion is from an interview he did with Bruce Edgar about 15 years ago that was printed in SpeakerBuilder. Bruce has told us several intersting stories about PWK and his approach at the Chicago club meetings he's attended. www.chicagohornspeakerclub.org This message has been edited by TBrennan on 08-01-2002 at 10:30 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Disc Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 Interesting topic. Perhaps HDBRbuilder can shed some light on the horn material used. As I undestand it, Klipsch used to use metal horn materials. In later models, switched to plastic or composite. Keep in mind, I'm hearing this 2nd hand and have no first hand knowledge of what I described. I spoke with a German gent and a local horn club meeting, and he mentioned that he had compared both the Cornwall with both plastic horn and metal horn configurations, and the plastic horn could not compare with the metal horn. He also went on to say the Cornwall was in some German audioclub circles the "reference" speaker, period. Note, this was a side-by-side comparison according to this gent. HDBRbuilder perhaps you can shed some of your wisdom on this area. tb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 Not to try and spoil the party, but I like JBL because they make all their mid-hi end drivers in house. The low ebd stuff is outsourced to Mexico or SE Asia, but is THEIR design. My 2226 15" woofers are made in the JBL factory EXCEPT for the aluminum basket, which is make in a off-site foundary. The whole thing is under their control. I would think Klipsch could subcontract with a BIG driver company and make their own drivers. It's not like (not sure actually) they would have to invent a special driver. ------------------ Receiver: Sony STR-DE675 CD player: Sony CDP-CX300 Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U Speakers: JBL HLS-610 Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8 Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 I am in total agreement about the University 4401 tweeter. Q-Man and I compared his University Classic with my La Scala, and the University had it all over the La Scala, except the tweeter. The cymbal sounded like a cymbal with the K-77 (EV T-35)... Mike ------------------ My Music Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted August 4, 2002 Author Share Posted August 4, 2002 My two-cents worth on PWK and his speaker designs and components used: I have to agree that the components used in the so-called Heritage speakers were NOT the highest-dollar components that were available at the time...I also have to agree that part of his genius was his ability to take these lower-cost components and produce such good speakers with them inside. But there is much more to the story than just the above...consider this: The k-horn, Belle Klipsch, LaScala, Cornwall, and Heresy were produced using just FOUR drivers!!! two woofers, one 12-inch the other 15-inch, one midrange horn driver and one tweeter...and this was ALL that was used in an ENTIRE LINE from a manufacturer!! It is one thing to use less expensive drivers in one's product, but quite another to pretty much use the same drivers in ALL of the products!! The only differences between these speakers other than cabinet designs were the crossover networks and mid-range horn lenses(except in the Heresy where the smaller woofer was used)!! That is really quite an amazing feat, IMHO!! The other consideration is this: I asked once while working there just why we didn't make our own drivers. I was told this: "Well, our speakers need drivers that meet certain requirements, but they really DON'T NEED TO EXCEED those requirements in order to do the job well, except in the area of longetivity. If we started making our own drivers, it would not only require a major expense to set this up, but whenever we ran across something we like better from another company, we would either have to re-tool to make something akin to it, OR we would have to pay a licensing fee to the company who came up with it first!! And, if that company was a major home speaker manufacturer, and competitor, they would likely 'skin us alive' with the licensing fee and you could just see them advertising their home speaker systems with a little note saying that "the (you fill in the blank) Klipsch model uses the same driver in it as our (you fill in the blank)." The way we do it allows us to avoid this hassle and if somebody out there produces something we like better than what we are currently using, we can always contract them to produce it for us...no re-tooling costs, and it is up to them to provide the quality control, or we can just go back to what we WERE using, if their quality control suffers!! This has worked for us since day one and I imagine it will continue to work for a long time into the future...especially since we built our anechoic chamber...now everybody in the world who produces drivers sends them to us to test to try to get us to give them a try-out! Some of them are technically better, but they either don't meet our needs, or they exceed our needs at a much higher price than what we currently use...so we stay with what we have...Just because a car can go 150 miles an hour, doesn't mean you have to buy it if you never drive over 55! Besides, you will probably save more money if you buy the slower car and its gas mileage will likely be better too, as will its engine life!" Made sense to me!! Horn material used: When I worked there(1976-1983), the tweeter horns were integral to the tweeter, and were an aluminum alloy. The midrange horns lenses were also made from an aluminum alloy. These horns arrived in two halves and were originally assembled up in a subsidiary company on plant property called "Wounded Buffalo"...that, at the time, was owned by Tommy Crouch, the CAO of Klipsch. There the two halves were joined together, and their throats were machined and tapped for the mid-drivers, then they were painted black and sent over to final assembly. The "plastic" horns came along later, after I was no longer with the company, BUT I remember some "plastic" horns were tested while I was still there. We also made fiberglass mid-range horn lenses in house...we had a local man who came out and did that for us. Mid-horn lenses were in a constant state of R&D while I was there...primarily for the Large industrial line speakers(MCM1900), but also for testing for applications in the home line. ------------------ I can now receive private messages This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 08-04-2002 at 10:18 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted August 4, 2002 Share Posted August 4, 2002 IT's nice having a Ex-employee in the BB! THANX! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShapeShifter Posted August 4, 2002 Share Posted August 4, 2002 HDBRbuilder, Do you know the year, internal components and finish for PWK's personal K-Horns and Belle? Just wonder if he had a preference. Wes ------------------ KLIPSCH IS MUSICf> My Systems f>s>c> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted August 5, 2002 Author Share Posted August 5, 2002 I have no idea what PWK had at his home since 1983, but he had a pair of standard walnut-veneered k-horns and one walnut-veneered Belle in his living room the times I stopped by while I worked there...of course, it was some VERY NICE matching on the walnut veneer, though. These were built in the very early 1970's. It wasn't uncommon to overhear "we are taking some(you fill in the blank for the model) by Paul's house after work"...and a number of different speakers with different finishes and veneers made their way through that home over the years...some just for a short-term stay. I honestly believe that PWK had a real affinity(as do I) for black walnut, though!! ------------------ I can now receive private messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardre Posted August 5, 2002 Share Posted August 5, 2002 HDBR.....fascinating ruminations as always. I'm sure many others feel as I do.....great to have an 'insider's' POV. Reading Paul's missive about drivers peaked curiosity. WRT the bass drivers, maybe I am not reading correctly because there seems to be some timeline issues that have me scratching. "...We went through a succession of different bass drivers over the years. An early driver was a Magnavox. Then we went to Jensen and then to Stephens."...."Then we went with Electro-voice. That driver was the 15WK and the original was 16 ohm."....I am NOT in anyway on the dispute here, it's just that these statements meant to clarify have to me actually muddied. I've never seen a Magnavox or Jensen speaker in a production K-Horn. All the early '50's ones have Stephens and a few of the mid-50's have EV15WK's. All the Klipsch produced product brochures of that era specifically state with pride that bass drivers are either 15" Stephens, 12" or 15" EV's and that it is the consumers CHOICE as to which one he/she want's in their unit. This would more than indicate a concurrent production availability of both drivers, not a sequential availability. The product pamphlets, of which there are several of on Hifilit.com, also suggest that the lion's share of the 50's had both drivers concurrently available. Product reviews of that timeframe espouse the virtues of the Stephens Trusonic, many going as far as to say that the Stephens Trusonic may be one of the finest speakers ever made. I believe that is the reason that virtually all the Khorns of that era contain these drivers over the EV15WK. The next thing I found contradictory to my understanding was this statement: "That driver was the 15WK and the original was 16 ohm." It has been my understanding....perhaps incorrect?......that the EV15WK was the 8ohm version of the EV15W made specifically for utilization in a Klipsch or Klipsch style folded horn just as the Stephens Trusonic 103LX2 was the 8ohm version of the 103LX again, specifically for utilization in a Klipsch folded horn. WRT the statement "Before the Electro-Voice, we used the University 4401, a sad tweeter, but there wasn't anything significantly better." In fact, the 4401 was University's low end tweeter. There were significantly better models available for about twice the price. The University UXT-5 supertweeter or if you want to go really high price ($27 in 1957), the HF-206. You know, I love my Klipsch speakers. Have nothing but the fondest admiration and greatest respect for PWK. I pay tribute to the man every night whether I'm thrilling to a new DVD or chilling alone in the dark just listening to music. People will always cite technical reasons why this speaker should sound better than that speaker. Here we have evidence of the legend himself speaking to why technically and historically the newer units should be better for your listening experience than the archaic. However, before buying into one or the other, I would suggest you seek out or experience for yourself. Rarely do you hear of someone who has listened to both current 'Heritage' vs vintage say that they like the sound of the newer over the old. I can scarcely recall EVER hearing anyone deride a 50's era Khorn. Typically it is just the opposite. "On a different level" is the term generally associated with these comparisons. To me, the difference can be compared to the difference between tube and SS. "But the SS is the latest and greatest technology" "Certainly you cannot disagree with the specs". These were common phrases stated as absolutes ever since the inception of the modern SS amp. It is only recently that what a handful of 'dinosaurs' have always maintained has gained widespread acceptance. Say what you will, (generally speaking) tubes sounds better than SS. Vintage drivers sound better in Khorns. ------------------ Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted August 5, 2002 Author Share Posted August 5, 2002 I just quoted what the book said were his words. There was a magnavox in some of the very first k-horns...just as there were some jensons....I have personally watched a Jenson COax get pulled out of a very old k-horn when I worked there....Remember...the k-horn was being produced from 1946 onwards...not just in the 1950's...and the very first ones sold as production models weren't even built by Klipsch, but by a piano company in Arkansas. The next few were made by a cabinet shop in the Hope area...then Klipsch started producing them as a company. Up until that time it was just a small R&D shop. I don't think PWK was being facetious when he mentioned that after Bob Stephens sold out, the quality control went on the product...that is pretty normal. It happened at Marantz after Saul left there, too!! Remember, just because somebody makes the best tweeter in the world doesn't mean that you NEED IT for your purposes!! Same for woofers or any other component. Parameters need to be met, but what benefit is there to pay alot more for something that exceeds the parameters you need, when you can get something less expensive with great longetivity that meets your needs? And PWK's comment about "poor bob..." was likely relating to the Stephens company continuing to produce in the old way while all his competitors undercut them using newer production techniques that saved more money and left him holding the bag with a high-cost series of units that nobody could afford to buy...remember...the 1950's were MOSTLY lean years economically!! I am sure PWK's remarks had nothing to do with the quality of the product Bob built while he had the company!! As for PWK's statement about the EV15WK...maybe he was trying to say..."the EV15WK, the original (the EV15W) was a 16 ohm, but I needed an 8 ohm...."...so they came up with the EV15WK for my needs....DON'T YA THINK? ------------------ I can now receive private messages This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 08-05-2002 at 03:00 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Reed Posted August 5, 2002 Share Posted August 5, 2002 The two walnut K-Horns and Belle center are still there in PWK's living room. They have K55V mid drivers and AA balancing networks. There are other speakers in the house, but these were his babies. Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShapeShifter Posted August 5, 2002 Share Posted August 5, 2002 HDBR & Tony, Thanks for the insight into PWK's personal treasures. Makes me think a bit about the various tweeks, changes and updates we make in an attempt to make an already great product better, at least that's what we think. ------------------ KLIPSCH IS MUSICf> My Systems f>s>c> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 5, 2002 Share Posted August 5, 2002 I don't suppose Mr. Klipsch had a set of RF7's hidden back in the bedroom? Ah, no, I didn't think so. Man, he missed out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Reed Posted August 5, 2002 Share Posted August 5, 2002 The only speakers I've ever seen in PWK's home are his designs. They're all "stock"... no tweaks. Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted August 5, 2002 Share Posted August 5, 2002 The EV 15 W "K" is 4 ohm nonimal impedence, 3.8 ohn DC-resitance voice coil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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