babadono Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 There has been a lot of back and forth in this thread about safety ground. About before a certain date houses did not have them etc.. And why pray tell do you think we have them now? I'll let you in on a secret: People were getting electrocuted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechnut Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Safety is important. That's why I'm glad BiC came out with the safety lighter. You can never be too safe. Thank you industry Gurus and federal government! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted December 23, 2014 Author Share Posted December 23, 2014 Hmmm? Nobody wants to try the little gadget? Did I start this thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Hmmm? Nobody wants to try the little gadget? I've tried them on multiple occasions, they work great. I still have one I got over 20 years ago and refuse to get rid of it. Hopefully I just won't have to use it anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JL Sargent Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 Nobody wants to try the little gadget? We used em for decades. Alas, nobody so much as got a tingle from using them either............. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 Timely comments from Paul McGowan, founder and CEO of PS Audio http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/if-doing-the-right-thing-fails/ Seems to be an honest and forthright apprisal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechnut Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 (edited) His statement in the 3rd sentence of "To do this you will need to ‘unground’ the offending piece of equipment." is misleading. Neutral/Return & Ground are bonded to the same point creating multiple paths to ground, in case there is a failure in one of the paths. Having two wires does not "unground" the equipment. It's impossible for A/C voltage to even work if there is no path to ground. He kinda goes into showing he understands this in the last paragraph, by explaining how he has solved his own ground loop problems. The statements are misleading how he pairs them together. Edited December 25, 2014 by Beechnut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 (edited) Timely comments from Paul McGowan, founder and CEO of PS Audio http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/if-doing-the-right-thing-fails/ Seems to be an honest and forthright apprisal. His statement in the 3rd sentence of [/size]"To do this you will need to ‘unground’ the offending piece of equipment." is misleading. Neutral/Return & Ground are bonded to the same point creating multiple paths to ground, in case there is a failure in one of the paths. Having two wires does not "unground" the equipment. It's impossible for A/C voltage to even work if there is no path to ground. [/size] He kinda goes into showing he understands this in the last paragraph, by explaining how he has solved his own ground loop problems. The statements are misleading how he pairs them together.[/size] What's misleading in terms of this conversation is that he sells equipment that uses XLR cables, which yeah, does ground to the other components in the rack, that's why he can say what he did in the last sentence of the last paragraph. It's all still grounded. Edited December 26, 2014 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle bermingham Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 I spent two years of frustration attempting to rid my system of a ground loop. The cable guy suggested a cheater plug and it completely eliminated it. If the other things that I spent money on worked, I would not employ this method; however, every other method either did not work, or only worked to some extent. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Timely comments from Paul McGowan, founder and CEO of PS Audio http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/if-doing-the-right-thing-fails/ Seems to be an honest and forthright apprisal. His statement in the 3rd sentence of [/size]"To do this you will need to ‘unground’ the offending piece of equipment." is misleading. Neutral/Return & Ground are bonded to the same point creating multiple paths to ground, in case there is a failure in one of the paths. Having two wires does not "unground" the equipment. It's impossible for A/C voltage to even work if there is no path to ground. [/size] He kinda goes into showing he understands this in the last paragraph, by explaining how he has solved his own ground loop problems. The statements are misleading how he pairs them together.[/size] What's misleading in terms of this conversation is that he sells equipment that uses XLR cables, which yeah, does ground to the other components in the rack, that's why he can say what he did in the last sentence of the last paragraph. It's all still grounded. RCA cables pass ground from one device to the next also..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 It's impossible for A/C voltage to even work if there is no path to ground. Wrong. As long as there is a CIRCUIT current will flow. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 I'm sorry and this is only my HO but you cannot get a pair (or 1 for that matter) of high quality (good freq response down to 20Hz and at low distortion levels) audio transformers for 6 bucks. I measured the distortion level at near subwoofer and MLP today. Here are the numbers: 10Hz less than 1 meter to speaker 25% MLP 12.67% 20Hz 4.59% 8.84% 50Hz 1.23% 0.47% 100Hz 0.67% 1.23% The subs are tuned to around 21 Hz and the 10 Hz distortion level of 25/12.67% is not unexpected since I am not trying to reproduce those frequencies. The 10 Hz measure was taken with one of the vented subs. The 100 Hz distortion number of 0.67 and 1.23% are opposite of all the other reading since the close mic measured lower. This is also not unusual since the system is XO at 50 Hz. The 100 Hz measure represents the mains and sub at the MLP. The distortion readings are very good for the system in the working range for the subwoofers using the ground loop isolator. For 20 Hz and above the system wood get a very good rating from database.com CEA standards for subwoofers. Distortion figures derived from Dayton Omnimic. To be clear. In my original post I was not referring to or concerned about the levels or distortion coming out of the speakers, I'm talking about the transformer itself. If you put a 20Hz signal in at +20dBV(or even 0dBV)@0.1%THD the output will not be the same with a $2 transformer. Now can you hear 8.84% distortion at 20 Hz is an entirely different question. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) RCA cables pass ground from one device to the next also..... Counting on RCA cables to act as an earth/chassis ground isn't exactly real smart. Edited December 31, 2014 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Hard to believe how many folks around here are alarmists....I still like to see one documented situation where a consumer using stereo equipment with all but one device grounded via the wall was killed or even injured in anyway...seems like you could find some real proof of this extreme danger... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Craig, you have said this all before. Some of us do not take a casual view of fire safety and electrical safety. That is the basic disagreement. I am going to guess that the products you manufacture and sell are not UL approved. I hope I am wrong .... am I? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 He'll no they are not....but they do come with 3 wire grounded power cords. I'm fairly sure with blazing hot tubes exposed my amplifiers would never pass UL anyway... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I'm a lot more concerned about the safety of all the piece of junk "made in China" plastic boxes that get plugged in all over the house. Have you ever gone around your house and counted all the wall warts and different devices you have plugged in?? One of them decides to self destruct and you could lose your house. Twice in the last 12 years or so I've unplugged things that were either melting or starting to stink like burning electronics. Another time it was a power strip that was getting hot without anything even plugged in. Luckily, I was here to catch it all! I keep as much unplugged as possible these days. Seems to me with tube amps new or old you just have to use a little sense. I try not to leave them unattended, keep the kids away, and don't give myself a path to ground if doing something with them like adjusting the bias. With kids, I worry most about them knocking or breaking a tube and coming into contact with a live circuit. I think I have instilled an appropriate amount of fear in them. I have to take a short electrical safety course every year for work. I'm surprised at some of the myths that still seem popular... such as electricity following the path of least resistance. Electricity follows ALL paths! Another thing pounded into our heads is that GFCI should always be used on circuits with power tools and extension cords. They also make the point of showing situations where GFCI will not protect you. Next time the course comes up I will share some of it here for anyone interested. All that said... yes, I use a few cheater plugs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 All that said... yes, I use a few cheater plugs. Man you sure you will live long enough to share the information from the electrical safety course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 All that said... yes, I use a few cheater plugs. Man you sure you will live long enough to share the information from the electrical safety course Maybe... maybe not. I installed them on a power strip in my shower so I can turn on some tunes while taking a shower Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eth2 Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 All that said... yes, I use a few cheater plugs. Man you sure you will live long enough to share the information from the electrical safety course Maybe... maybe not. I installed them on a power strip in my shower so I can turn on some tunes while taking a shower SHOCKING! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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