Mallette Posted December 1, 2017 Author Share Posted December 1, 2017 This has been a great discussion, IMHO, but we are rehashing stuff and it reminds me of 2 Channel and the Old BS forum. I'll check in occasionally with news as it develops as well as to see what is being posted but I think I had already addressed most of the last few objections elsewhere and won't comment unless something new comes up. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 Have we already covered all these points? Disadvantages of Driverless Cars Driverless cars would likely be out of the price range of most ordinary people when generally introduced, likely costing over $100,000. Truck drivers and taxi drivers will lose their jobs, as autonomous vehicles take over. A computer malfunction, even just a minor glitch, could cause worse crashes than anything that human error might bring about. If the car crashes, without a driver, who's fault is it: Google/the software designer, or the owner of the vehicle? The cars would rely on the collection of location and user information, creating major privacy concerns. Hackers getting into the vehicle's software and controlling or affecting its operation would be a major security worry. There are problems currently with autonomous vehicles operating in certain types of weather. Heavy rain interferes with roof-mounted laser sensors, and snow can interfere with its cameras. Reading human road signs is challenging for a robot. As drivers become more and more used to not driving, their proficiency and experience will diminish. Should they then need to drive under certain circumstances, there may be problems. The road system and infrastructure would likely need major upgrades for driverless vehicles to operate on them. Traffic and street lights, for instance, would likely all need altering. Self-driving cars would be great news for terrorists, as they could be loaded with explosives and used as moving bombs. Ethical problems could arise which a machine might struggle to deal with. Faced with a choice between plowing into a group of schoolchildren or going off a bridge and killing all its passengers, what does the vehicle do? Should the vehicle always swerve to avoid animals in the road or always prioritize the safety and comfort of passengers? Human behavior such as hand signals are difficult for a computer to understand. How would the police interact with driverless vehicles, especially in the case of accidents or crimes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted December 1, 2017 Author Share Posted December 1, 2017 Nothing in there worthy of addressing, Carl. Some, like the cost, are pure bullshit. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 39 minutes ago, Mallette said: Nothing in there worthy of addressing, Carl. Some, like the cost, are pure bullshit. Dave 100k isn't out of the realm of possibility for early adopters. There are lots of 100k and near 100k vehicles out there now that aren't AV. Just like TV's though, the price will come down with mass production. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted December 1, 2017 Author Share Posted December 1, 2017 Tesla S3 comes equipped as fully autonomous at 36k, less after tax rebate, and the big Tesla as well at well less than 100k. Both are now hobbled by software to ensure that the AV cannot be employed due to the death of the idiot who failed to follow instructions as well as existing law. But as long as you keep a hand on the wheel they'll do a better, safer job of getting you there than you will. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 You're talking about a level 3 car, I would think that level 4 cars would be more which is what I'm referring to and what you want the end game to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted December 1, 2017 Author Share Posted December 1, 2017 If it handles itself hands off on any roadway, I consider it fully autonomous. The Tesla certainly does so on highways. City streets will require legal changes and software refinement, but my main immediate interest is long distance highway driving. The rest will follow shortly given the economic incentives which are among the greatest in history. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MookieStl Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 7 hours ago, dwilawyer said: They can be idiot proof but I would think it would be cost prohibitive. If they are not idiot proof then the state is still going to require you to buy insurance. . Make it "idiot proof" and then they will build a better idiot! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted December 2, 2017 Moderators Share Posted December 2, 2017 4 hours ago, Mallette said: Nothing in there worthy of addressing, Carl. Some, like the cost, are pure bullshit. Dave We don't know what the cost is because there isn't one yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted December 2, 2017 Moderators Share Posted December 2, 2017 59 minutes ago, Mallette said: If it handles itself hands off on any roadway, I consider it fully autonomous. The Tesla certainly does so on highways. City streets will require legal changes and software refinement, but my main immediate interest is long distance highway driving. The rest will follow shortly given the economic incentives which are among the greatest in history. Dave You keep wavering back and forth on this. You have flipped from previous posts. Which level of A/V do you consider autonomous? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 If an autonomous vehicle was built by Western Electric I would buy it. It would have every contingency known to man built in including traveling upside down during an earthquake. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted December 2, 2017 Author Share Posted December 2, 2017 21 minutes ago, dwilawyer said: You keep wavering back and forth on this. You have flipped from previous posts. Which level of A/V do you consider autonomous? No, I don't. I consider autonomous to be anything that can navigate and handle itself even if it requires my hands touching the wheel. That is a "cripple" built in to protect the OEM while the laws are changed and they refine the software. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 57 minutes ago, Mallette said: No, I don't. I consider autonomous to be anything that can navigate and handle itself even if it requires my hands touching the wheel. You can't have it both ways. It's either fully autonomous or its not for the sake of this argument. There are certain levels of automatic safeguards built into many vehicles now days that act without driver input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted December 2, 2017 Author Share Posted December 2, 2017 3 minutes ago, CECAA850 said: It's either fully autonomous or its not for the sake of this argument. Fully autonomous remains a topic of debate. Not for me...as I said, if it handles all tasks even requiring hands on due to law and liability, it's autonomous by my standards. Same without hands on will come very soon in one state or the other followed by more and then the Feds. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 If you have to keep your hands on the wheel to keep from getting killed it's not a full AV which is the topic of debate. Your thread is titled to debate AV in the year 2019 not the hybrid AV's we have now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted December 2, 2017 Author Share Posted December 2, 2017 1 hour ago, CECAA850 said: If you have to keep your hands on the wheel to keep from getting killed it's not a full AV which is the topic of debate. Where do you get that? Nonsense. You have to keep your hands on the wheel to keep it in AV mode due to law and liability at the moment. Still safer than under your control and fully AV as long as your hands are present...and doing nothing but being there. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 On 3/14/2015 at 7:20 AM, Mallette said: In fact, a case will eventually come saying it's absurd to hold an owner responsible for something over which he has no control. This is what I'm referring to Dave, your end game when you get in a car, tell it where to go, sit back and fall asleep. There's already options on vehicles to stop your car and keep you in your lane among other things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 Now all we have is "look, my car can drive itself, as long as I keep my hands on the wheel and make sure the car doesn't kill me or someone else". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted December 2, 2017 Author Share Posted December 2, 2017 1 hour ago, CECAA850 said: Now all we have is "look, my car can drive itself, as long as I keep my hands on the wheel and make sure the car doesn't kill me or someone else". Pretty amazing, eh? The hands on the wheel first shouldn't come as a big surprise but it will not be in force long. The large, and growing, presence of these systems will debug them far faster than aircraft took. Remember what I said above: When you correct a bad behavior in one of them, you correct it in all. BIG difference there with the current situation. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted December 2, 2017 Moderators Share Posted December 2, 2017 On 4/1/2015 at 8:24 AM, Mallette said: "Freedom from external control or influence; independence" You dispute that if there is no driver in the seat this definition doesn't fit? Serious stretch... That is not a law. If it is, Delphi just broke it. Dave No driver in the seat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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