AllenTacey Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 (edited) http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PAHAINT&utm_source=MailChimp&utm_medium=email&utm_content=PAHAINT&utm_campaign=Raves%20for%20Parasound%20Integrated&uid=e7f91b1bb2 Never liked the much overpriced Paramount equipment. Looks pretty but I close my eyes a lot when in listening mode. Look on eBay under Vintage stuff and keep your Bids to the end. I purchased a 1980 $800 A/B Solid State for $138 total. Toss a switch and your 200 watt RMS with a dynamic range that hits over 293 watts per channel will drive 500 watts RMS, dynamic range over 800 watts, RMS one channel genuine use a Y and it becomes a monoblock. My other amp I built cost $200 in 1980 held its price. 100 watts RMS with the 2.5 dynamic range it puts out a tad over 200 watts RMS THD .0005 no other amp sounds this clean or built as rugged that it can drive 15 ampere's into a 8 penny nail short circuit (across left and right channels). Wire it into a 1000 Bridged monoblock? Two amplifiers @ 1000 watts RMS per channel spend under $600? This is what I have: 100 watts RMS per channel into 8 ohms, Dynamic Range 2.5 (over 250 watts per channel RMS @ clipping) Damping Factor conservative 50, THD .0005, Intermodulation Distortion Unmeasureable SMPTE S/N Greater than 150dBs down IHF A weighted, 20 to 20,000 +/- 0 (crossover cuts off those lows) into tweets & mids. I am driving 201 watts per channel into 8 ohms (Dynamic Range 1.9 rated 250 watts at clipping) Damping Factor >150 (Slew factor really >200!) THD .05 Intermodulation Distortion.05 SMPTE S/N Greater than 100dBs down IHF A weighted, 1Hz - 250kHz @ 1 watt +0 -3 dB driving my woofers. My pair of R-28F's driven by amps that cost $337 total driving conservative 500 watts then include the preamplifier which compliments the mid/tweet amplifier (unmeasureable Distortion) brings the cost to $537 a lot less than my Rega Planar 3's worth of $1700(!). Look for real bargains? I didn't say my system sounds perfect? CRISP... Edited June 24, 2015 by AllenTacey 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 (edited) This is what I have: 100 watts RMS per channel into 8 ohms, Dynamic Range 2.5 (over 250 watts per channel RMS @ clipping) I'm no expert, but I am confused ... I don't think your 100 w.p.c. RMS amp would have 250 w.p.c RMS at clipping, but just plain 250 w.p,c @ clipping, period. That's fine, I think that is still a very good figure. I think clipping happens at different points, depending on how it is measured. I think RMS is approx. .707 X the peak of a steady sine wave ... I could be wrong. So @100 watts RMS per channel, a continuous sine wave would approach clipping @ 141 watts. But in music, with very sharp, brief transients, amplifiers are often specified as being capable of dynamic range of 2 times the continuous power, but, that too, could be arbitrary. Some amplifiers can pass extremely brief peaks without clipping at an even higher level. A long time ago on the forum, an engineer said that RMS (root mean square?) cannot properly be used to describe power in watts, but is more properly used when we are talking about some other electrical unit. I'll admit that this, too, confused me. Maybe he will read this post, and explain again. Edited June 24, 2015 by garyrc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 I'm always putting nails across the outputs of my amps. I like seeing the magic smoke come out of my amps, but it can get costly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J M O N Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Appreciate the intention although this doesn't seem like a "budget system" to me. For that kinda cash, you can start getting into some serious sounding gear with vacuum tubes preferably. I tend to prefer simplicity. All the USB, Mac OS, features and such may be nice for some but it's just a matter of time before all that becomes outdated (and eventually obsolete). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 (edited) As always, the word "budget" varies from wallet to wallet. I haven't heard the latest Parasound Halo integrated, but from what I can tell, this piece seems like a good option for somebody who is looking for a powerful, full-featured integrated from an established manufacturer. That said, if you're a real world listener who wants to step into a non-sucky integrated that features a good DAC and Phono-pre, and you're more or less trying to stick to a real world budget, then check out affordable alternatives like the iFi Retro 50 ($1500 USD) or the Indiana Line Puro 800 ($880). Both pieces sound excellent with Klipsch speakers. Edited June 25, 2015 by Zero Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A1UC Posted June 25, 2015 Author Share Posted June 25, 2015 (edited) . Edited June 25, 2015 by A1UC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A1UC Posted June 25, 2015 Author Share Posted June 25, 2015 Appreciate the intention although this doesn't seem like a "budget system" to me. For that kinda cash, you can start getting into some serious sounding gear with vacuum tubes preferably. I tend to prefer simplicity. All the USB, Mac OS, features and such may be nice for some but it's just a matter of time before all that becomes outdated (and eventually obsolete).2500 doesnt go far is somone needs all those features , but hey good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willland Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Appreciate the intention although this doesn't seem like a "budget system" to me. For that kinda cash, you can start getting into some serious sounding gear with vacuum tubes preferably. I tend to prefer simplicity. All the USB, Mac OS, features and such may be nice for some but it's just a matter of time before all that becomes outdated (and eventually obsolete).2500 doesnt go far is somone needs all those features , but hey good luck How about this. This new Parasound Halo integrated amp/high end DAC which is equipped with some serious quality guts and features goes for far less than the sum of it's parts. Therefore some(me), based on features and reputation of the Halo line, consider it a serious performance "bargain". Bill 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willland Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 (edited) "Perfect for someone wanting a nice budget high quality performance bargain system" Edited June 25, 2015 by willland 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A1UC Posted June 25, 2015 Author Share Posted June 25, 2015 Well said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J M O N Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Appreciate the intention although this doesn't seem like a "budget system" to me. For that kinda cash, you can start getting into some serious sounding gear with vacuum tubes preferably. I tend to prefer simplicity. All the USB, Mac OS, features and such may be nice for some but it's just a matter of time before all that becomes outdated (and eventually obsolete).2500 doesnt go far is somone needs all those features , but hey good luck No luck needed here. I place more or a priority over sound quality than I do features, which was a point I was trying to make. For those that do "need" those features, this may very well be a great deal. I don't know as I haven't been looking for that kind of stuff so I'm sure you have more insight than I. Again, the intent of your post is appreciated -- it was the word budget that confused me as I was expecting so see something costing a whole lot less than $2500. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J M O N Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 "Perfect for someone wanting a nice budget high quality performance bargain system" There you go! Take that word out and there likely aren't any questions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finallygotmyheresies Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 This forum is just full of people who like to hack on ANYBODY's opinion. No matter what the topic is. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U0z2V7s5y3s 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sancho Panza Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 ^^^ your opinion is wrong, LoL 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenTacey Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) Garyrc what I will say is I am frugal. The $200 amp could be purchased assembled for $300. I know how to put things together. I read the manual page at a time after the first read (and used acid free flux solder it demanded) took my time reread double checked my work. Everything good and not so good in 1980 had ridiculously priced equipment available for the rich. I never had those rich aspirations but I needed the best sound. Fortunately a very talented man had the same beliefs. Sold at 100 watts per channel .0005 distortion (have $4000 to match that?) but my separate peak reading meter revealed 200 watts driving my Stax earpieces. So it is 2015 now thirty five years later and I look on internet for my amp thinking of two mono amps and it s priced higher than 1980. So I looked at competitors stuff which was also priced higher but one priced right. I bought a 200 watt per channel .05 distortion amp because it has a rated damping factor of over 150 and altough it handles extremely high frequencies, 250,000Hz, I connected it to the bass speakers on my R-28F's due to it being sonically capable down to 1k +0 -3. I connected my original amp to handle the upper frequencies because it is rated flat 20Hz to 20kHz -0 +0. Solid state is better at high frequencies then tubes. Both my amps have imperceptible distortion even to birds. They are called separates as is my preamp turntable or anything else I connect. No DAC's USB's and phono amps are built-in. I have a high output moving coil Ortophon 540 cartridge and a Grado F-1 moving magnet cartridge and can say the lighter moving coil design tracks better. So $2600 is priced low for equipment that has .5 distortion does not put a conservative 600 watts per channel into R-28F's?? No wonder people think they need powered woofers? Spending $138 last month I have sound flat from 1Hz to 25,000Hrz coming from REFERENCE Speakers. Klipsch cannot be blamed for selling Speakers. Many competitors Speakers and 5.1 systems sound vastly improved. But REFERENCE loudspeakers do not need equipment with lots of neato switches, pretty lights and include cheap internal products so it can perform as if it can do everything well. This is perception. I have listened to a $75,000 system consisting of a tube preamp, only fed by a $5000 CD player, connected by 2 wires each the size of a 1" garden hose to two 75 watt mono tube amps again connected by garden hoses to a $20,000 pair of "transparent Electrostatic Speakers" (think they were Carvers?). Best system possible the sax clearly in place and amazed I stood up and walked toward that sound. The sound field remained rooted in front of me as I passed between the speakers more than six feet from the wall. The reasoning for tubes is the solid bass is said not to be possible by anything other then extremely expensive solid state equipment. Tubes mechanically have very high damping factors. It is also called Slew Rate to obfuscate things. It is also called Push Pull. Big woofers need electrical power to push big magnets in and immediately out. This is damping. The ability to produce a 30Hz waveform and then immediately stop. Rattle is produced when systems lack the ability to damp the speaker. A damping factor of 50 is excellent so both of my amps qualify but the "new" amp exceeds 150 down to inaudible levels. Speakers that include ports are better able to reproduce 30Hz waves because it takes 30 get of space to produce that sound. Hence Klipsch makes very heavey ported Speakers that reproduce the entire audible sound spectrum flawlessly making them reference speakers. Lesser Speakers bellow imperceptibly except to "trained" ears. Trained ears? Trained ears happens when you listen to live performances of musical instruments. Learn how french horns are different from trombones. Violins from violas from cellos. Electric Bass from Upright Bass from Slap Bass. Get good enough you can tell the difference between Fender or Gibson Electric Guitars. Get really good and you will notice a Richenbacker Bass or Electric (Tom Petty 12 string?),Guild, Tayor Acoustic s. Then buy your equipment and pick up amplified stuff because it needs to be heavy! Claims of 1000 watts need to weigh 35 pounds. Sure my 200 watt (Ratio Means Square) amplifier 1Hz to 250kHz able to peak at 293 Watts weights under 10 pounds but it has a lot of elecronics squeezed into it's 10 inch square enclosure. RMS has to do with the square waves on an oscilloscope. You might have seen frequencies showing as up and down waves? 20Hz is a longer "hill and valley" than a 20,000Hz high frequency very tight "hills and valleys". Electronics such as tubes are believed to be better able to produce low frequency is because the wav is more square than traditional transistors which result in a more rounded wave. Then MOSfet's were invented. Metal Oxide Silicone feild effect transistors. Able to make square waves plus provide thermo shutdown before they clip, before they fry speakers. The ability to power a nail without destruction to a stereo while other equipment shorts out or destroys speakers is a plus. MOSfet's gave us very cheaply the ability to hear what tube enthusiast act like only they possess; a low frequency square wave... Amen Edited June 26, 2015 by AllenTacey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenTacey Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Garyrc technically you do not say the dynamic range of 250 watts at clipping is RMS. So I stand, really I am laying, corrected. A square wave only able to reach a rated 50 watts RMS or whatever watts at that points clips so technically has 0dBs of dynamic range. An amplifier rated 100 watts RMS with a dynamic range of 2.5 is expected to reach 250 watts using the same method of measurment that the amp reaches its claimed 100 watts, that is RMS or Ratio Means Square. Did this help? My amp might hit 253 watts before clipping. Clipping is when the output sine wave really clips possibly damaging everything; after a bit frying tweeters not the woofers. Clipping occurs when the signal rises then is cut short by lack of power. MOSfet's will shut the signal off. When I turned up the volume to my Stax earpieces to high the amplifier sonically shut off. Do you understand that at 250 watts it is still RMS and not RMS but rather a clipped waveform after specifications are exceeded? Now does everyone know why $2600 for Parasound is way to much because it applies too much negative feedback in its circuits? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshnich Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 As always, the word "budget" varies from wallet to wallet. I haven't heard the latest Parasound Halo integrated, but from what I can tell, this piece seems like a good option for somebody who is looking for a powerful, full-featured integrated from an established manufacturer. That said, if you're a real world listener who wants to step into a non-sucky integrated that features a good DAC and Phono-pre, and you're more or less trying to stick to a real world budget, then check out affordable alternatives like the iFi Retro 50 ($1500 USD) or the Indiana Line Puro 800 ($880). Both pieces sound excellent with Klipsch speakers. That iFi retro 50 looks very interesting. I noticed in Wardsweb's post about a recent gathering in San Antonio that one was part of the listening party. Not that I need another amp..but if I did I would check that one out! Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 But, are the speakers and room good enough to make a unit like this sound noticeably better than a truly budget item? Ah... that's the $64,000 question isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 (edited) Big woofers need electrical power to push big magnets in and immediately out. My amps push no magnets. Edited June 29, 2015 by babadono Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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